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paganism ~ Sakinorva Databank

paganism

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Philosophy, Psychology, and Social Sciences

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	Zeego INTP 9w1 sp/sx ILI 2019/05/24 (Fri) 20:01:54 #6088
	Hi Snow, I'm glad I come off as knowledgeable and insightful lol, but don't just take my word for it. The YouTuber Masaman did a pretty good video on the phenomenon of right-wing paganism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_pEv7WDqSs My experience has been similar to yours in that the only pagans I've met in person have been pretty liberal, but the ones I see online are much more right-wing and tend to overlap with nationalism/identarianism. Could have to do with demographics, or it could be a vocal minority situation. And about my comments on Wicca, please don't be discouraged from contributing to the converation. I was just saying what seems to be the general consensus from pagans themselves on this issue.

Editing post #6088 by Zeego <p>Hi Snow, I'm glad I come off as knowledgeable and insightful lol, but don't just take my word for it. The YouTuber Masaman did a pretty good video on the phenomenon of right-wing paganism: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_pEv7WDqSs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_pEv7WDqSs</a></p> <p>My experience has been similar to yours in that the only pagans I've met in person have been pretty liberal, but the ones I see online are much more right-wing and tend to overlap with nationalism/identarianism. Could have to do with demographics, or it could be a vocal minority situation.</p> <p>And about my comments on Wicca, please don't be discouraged from contributing to the converation. I was just saying what seems to be the general consensus from pagans themselves on this issue.</p>
Replying to post #6088 by Zeego

	~snow~ 2019/05/23 (Thu) 13:33:15 #6040
	Jacobus: "Nothing in paganism inspires this devotion, so how can it be considered a superior religion?" Devotion to a belief says nothing about the quality of that belief. Hitler was very devoted to his beliefs. Suicide bombers are very devoted to their beliefs. Etc. "one of Christianity's greatest attributes was that it made mankind seem wretched." That's actually one of the things I really dislike about Christianity. Humans are flawed obviously, but we're also capable of so much and to think we're wretched is so so wrong. This is the kind of mindset that causes people to become mentally ill. "What is more worthy of worship?" Nobody and nothing is worthy of worship in my opinion, especially someone who demands worship (that just sounds like a narcissist). And the god depicted in the bible is especially unworthy of worship imo, because he's cruel.

Editing post #6040 by *~snow~* <p>Jacobus:</p> <p> </p> <p>"Nothing in paganism inspires this devotion, so how can it be considered a superior religion?"<br /> <br /> Devotion to a belief says nothing about the quality of that belief. Hitler was very devoted to his beliefs. Suicide bombers are very devoted to their beliefs. Etc.<br /> <br /> "one of Christianity's greatest attributes was that it made mankind seem wretched."<br /> <br /> That's actually one of the things I really dislike about Christianity. Humans are flawed obviously, but we're also capable of so much and to think we're wretched is so so wrong. This is the kind of mindset that causes people to become mentally ill.<br /> <br /> "What is more worthy of worship?"<br /> <br /> Nobody and nothing is worthy of worship in my opinion, especially someone who demands worship (that just sounds like a narcissist). And the god depicted in the bible is especially unworthy of worship imo, because he's cruel.</p>
Replying to post #6040 by *~snow~*

	~snow~ 2019/05/23 (Thu) 13:20:24 #6039
	Zeego -- wow if that's actually true (about the right-wing pagans) then I take that part of my statement back. It seems there are terrible people belonging to every religion (and no religion too of course). I genuinely had no idea this was a prevalent aspect of paganism, as most self-proclaimed pagans I've come across seem to be very liberal and compassionate. Regarding Wicca, I've seen it grouped with neo-pagan religions, but sorry if it's actually not. There's a lot I don't know about paganism (clearly lol), but I wanted to join in the conversation because it was interesting and because I wanted to specifically address the statements about Christianity (which I know a lot more about) being superior. It may help if we can come up with a clear idea of what paganism encompasses because it's honestly a pretty vague term. But thank you for clarifying. You're very knowledgeable and insightful.

Editing post #6039 by *~snow~* <p>Zeego -- wow if that's actually true (about the right-wing pagans) then I take that part of my statement back. It seems there are terrible people belonging to every religion (and no religion too of course). I genuinely had no idea this was a prevalent aspect of paganism, as most self-proclaimed pagans I've come across seem to be very liberal and compassionate.<br /> <br /> Regarding Wicca, I've seen it grouped with neo-pagan religions, but sorry if it's actually not. There's a lot I don't know about paganism (clearly lol), but I wanted to join in the conversation because it was interesting and because I wanted to specifically address the statements about Christianity (which I know a lot more about) being superior. It may help if we can come up with a clear idea of what paganism encompasses because it's honestly a pretty vague term.<br /> <br /> But thank you for clarifying. You're very knowledgeable and insightful.</p>
Replying to post #6039 by *~snow~*

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/23 (Thu) 04:03:38 #6033
	"In short, people become neo-pagans not because they are more intelligent or inspired than Christians, but because they are as mediocre as the worst Christians." antic admiration was quite common among philosopher . if there is two existent city that are quoted as model it's Sparte (Descartes in Discourse on the Method and Rousseau in the Social Contract) or Athenes (Voltaire and Cornelius Castoriadis). Hegel restaured the antic social ethic with the priority of Sittlichkeit above moralität. Nietzsche was an admirer of polytheism and antic positive ethic. etc...

Editing post #6033 by fg <p>"In short, people become neo-pagans not because they are more intelligent or inspired than Christians, but because they are as mediocre as the worst Christians."</p> <p>antic admiration was quite common among philosopher . if there is two existent city that are quoted as model it's Sparte (Descartes in <em>Discourse on the Method</em> and Rousseau in the <em>Social Contract</em>) or Athenes (Voltaire and Cornelius Castoriadis).</p> <p>Hegel restaured the antic social ethic with the priority of Sittlichkeit above moralität.</p> <p>Nietzsche was an admirer of polytheism and antic positive ethic.</p> <p>etc...</p> <p> </p>
Replying to post #6033 by fg

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/23 (Thu) 03:04:48 #6032
	i am not surprise that two of the most mediocre people on this site defend the religion of mediocrity. the warmonger ideology that you attributes to paganism is certainly not the essence of it, rituals are not either. the biggest difference between christiannism and paganism is that christiannism is marked by a disgust of life and by negative values( by negative value i meant that their vision of good is more about resisting against evil rather than doing something good). on the contrary Pagan religion are characterized by a valuation of life and positive value (it's an ethic of hero). People who just don't do bad things are condamned to an eternal waiting in underground in greeko-roman mithology while they are the good ones in christiannism. some people who did bad thing but also great thing can hope to be in the Elyseum while one of the seven sin can make you miss the paradise. christiannism is the religion for people who don't want to do something great and just sheeply not do "bad things" and that's probably why political apathy and mediocrity rule in our christian civilization while it had a major role in antic civilization.

Editing post #6032 by fg <p>i am not surprise that two of the most mediocre people on this site defend the religion of mediocrity. the warmonger ideology that you attributes to paganism is certainly not the essence of it, rituals are not either. the biggest difference between christiannism and paganism is that christiannism is marked by a disgust of life and by negative values( by negative value i meant that their vision of good is more about resisting against evil rather than doing something good). on the contrary Pagan religion are characterized by a valuation of life and positive value (it's an ethic of hero). People who just don't do bad things are condamned to an eternal waiting in underground in greeko-roman mithology while they are the good ones in christiannism. some people who did bad thing but also great thing can hope to be in the Elyseum while one of the seven sin can make you miss the paradise. christiannism is the religion for people who don't want to do something great and just sheeply not do "bad things" and that's probably why political apathy and mediocrity rule in our christian civilization while it had a major role in antic civilization.</p>
Replying to post #6032 by fg

	Tman INTP 5w4/1w9/4w5 Sx/Sp ILI 2019/05/23 (Thu) 02:31:17 #6031
	Jacoubus, thats deeply unfiar. Lots of pagines did sufer, from Chrstians more often then not. And besides, arn't you mesuring the whole thing upsidown? The willingess to endure persuction arn't the mesure of a persons ideas, its there logical soundness. LadyX, I'm assuming you agree, not only with the infiority of pagnism, but with the supiroty of Christainty. I feel as though it's implied in what you said, and feel free to corect me, but based of that premises, why do you say the riturals of the pagen are any better then those of the church? Is the cult of Dynanieses really designed for ristriction and control, while the chatholic cornfestional isn't? Are the New Agers really less "Spirtual" then the smoke filled halls of the megachurch? Pretty much any orginized or semi orgianized reilgion has had some form of ritual, and some people might argue they were all made to control people. I'm not one of them to be clear, but you might as well be constent in your crtisims.

Editing post #6031 by Tman <p>Jacoubus, thats deeply unfiar. Lots of pagines did sufer, from Chrstians more often then not. And besides, arn't you mesuring the whole thing upsidown? The willingess to endure persuction arn't the mesure of a persons ideas, its there logical soundness.</p> <p>LadyX, I'm assuming you agree, not only with the infiority of pagnism, but with the supiroty of Christainty. I feel as though it's implied in what you said, and feel free to corect me, but based of that premises, why do you say the riturals of the pagen are any better then those of the church? Is the cult of Dynanieses really designed for ristriction and control, while the chatholic cornfestional isn't? Are the New Agers really less "Spirtual" then the smoke filled halls of the megachurch? Pretty much any orginized or semi orgianized reilgion has had some form of ritual, and some people might argue they were all made to control people. I'm not one of them to be clear, but you might as well be constent in your crtisims. </p>
Replying to post #6031 by Tman

	Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE 2019/05/22 (Wed) 19:17:33 #6029
	The neo-pagans (the right-wing ones mostly) make much about warrior values and whatnot but I can't help but see them as being too weak for Christianity. It's explicit within Christianity that you are expected to sacrifice everything if you are called to do so, and in the first 300 years the Christian Church suffered mass persecutions in which Christians would be executed in public. Yet it continued to grow. Nothing in paganism inspires this devotion, so how can it be considered a superior religion? Another note: for men like Augustine, Pascal, Luther, etc. one of Christianity's greatest attributes was that it made mankind seem wretched. God is not another creature with whom you can argue or contest, he is the creator who transcends being and is infinite and ineffable in his glory. If you rebel against him (which he allows you to do) you are rebelling against good, against nature, against yourself. What is more worthy of worship? In short, people become neo-pagans not because they are more intelligent or inspired than Christians, but because they are as mediocre as the worst Christians. But none of that is really relevant to this page, is it? Paganism is probably an ES type due to its focus on what is exterior and material.

Editing post #6029 by Jacobus <p>The neo-pagans (the right-wing ones mostly) make much about warrior values and whatnot but I can't help but see them as being too weak for Christianity. It's explicit within Christianity that you are expected to sacrifice everything if you are called to do so, and in the first 300 years the Christian Church suffered mass persecutions in which Christians would be executed in public. Yet it continued to grow. Nothing in paganism inspires this devotion, so how can it be considered a superior religion?</p> <p>Another note: for men like Augustine, Pascal, Luther, etc. one of Christianity's greatest attributes was that it made mankind seem wretched. God is not another creature with whom you can argue or contest, he is the creator who transcends being and is infinite and ineffable in his glory. If you rebel against him (which he allows you to do) you are rebelling against good, against nature, against yourself. What is more worthy of worship?</p> <p>In short, people become neo-pagans not because they are more intelligent or inspired than Christians, but because they are as mediocre as the worst Christians.</p> <p>But none of that is really relevant to this page, is it? Paganism is probably an ES type due to its focus on what is exterior and material.</p>
Replying to post #6029 by Jacobus

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/22 (Wed) 16:54:24 #6024
	political identity is not reducible to belonging to a party, it's belonging to a civilization, a class, a family. it's the structuration of an identity based on social belonging. i value political identity because we are social animals and that's a fact. People who deny that and believe to be self-suffisent individual are a results of liberalism and are paradoxically the biggest sheeps of the story.

Editing post #6024 by fg <p>political identity is not reducible to belonging to a party, it's belonging to a civilization, a class, a family. it's the structuration of an identity based on social belonging. i value political identity because we are social animals and that's a fact. People who deny that and believe to be self-suffisent individual are a results of liberalism and are paradoxically the biggest sheeps of the story.</p>
Replying to post #6024 by fg

	Zeego INTP 9w1 sp/sx ILI 2019/05/22 (Wed) 16:22:31 #6021
	Interesting comments section! fg: "paganism is rather an identitary movment based on a collective old imagery and old principle rather than theology and that's one of the main reason i consider it as superior of christianism." Why is identity politics preferable to theology? snow: "The biggest difference between Christianity and Pagan religions, to me, is that Pagan religions are generally far less toxic. Christianity can often be authoritarian and dogmatic. Meanwhile, most neo-Pagan religions have the positive qualities of religion (comfort, community, historical connections, unconditional positive regard, etc.) without the authoritarianism or dogma. That personally gives me more respect for those religions than Christianity. [...] I also think it's funny that you think pagans are more likely to be nationalistic than Christians, because as evidenced by Christian nationalists in America, that's really not the case. Also I highly doubt "closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests" is what actual pagans do. They're capable of being just as universalist as any other religion." While there are definitely non-authoritarian branches of paganism, the ones that have been speaking the loudest in recent years have been the ones that affiliate themselves with far-right politics. In fact, many of them act much like the xenophobic Christian nationalists you dislike so much, but with different images and names swapped out for Christian ones. Same ideology but re-skinned to reflect their identity-centric narrative. I suspect some of them really aren't spiritual at all and are using this as a vehicle to justify their political views, but I'm sure there are also many who sincerely believe what they preach. Diobono: "that's exactly why i don't like them much, pagan religions focus way too much on 6 values for my liking , those ideas can lend themselves easily to a highly nationalistic bent and i much prefer universalism because closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests is not my cup of tea much, globalism problems aside." I think a good model for pagan religions to follow would be Hinduism. It was able to successfully compete against Abrahamic religions in India because it transformed itself over time. It became less literal, less tribalistic, and more contemplative. I think the best religions are the ones that encourage deep philosophical inquiry rather than blind adherance to dogma. This was lacking in Puritanism (the branch of Christianity responsible for much of modern American protestantism), and it's lacking in modern right-wing pagan movements as well. snow: "In Wicca, for example, there's no dogma or universal rules that practitioners must follow. The one moral "rule" they mostly adhere to is "an it harm none, do what ye will." Theres also no hierarchy of authority or organizational structure in Wicca (contrary to the Catholic Church for example)." A lot of self-identified pagans would be annoyed that you grouped Wicca in with them lol. I do think Wicca should be considered a separate religion because it's explicitly a new tradition that syncretizes older ones.

Editing post #6021 by Zeego <p>Interesting comments section!</p> <p>fg: "paganism is rather an identitary movment based on a collective old imagery and old principle rather than theology and that's one of the main reason i consider it as superior of christianism."</p> <p>Why is identity politics preferable to theology?</p> <p>snow: "The biggest difference between Christianity and Pagan religions, to me, is that Pagan religions are generally far less toxic. Christianity can often be authoritarian and dogmatic. Meanwhile, most neo-Pagan religions have the positive qualities of religion (comfort, community, historical connections, unconditional positive regard, etc.) without the authoritarianism or dogma. That personally gives me more respect for those religions than Christianity. [...] I also think it's funny that you think pagans are more likely to be nationalistic than Christians, because as evidenced by Christian nationalists in America, that's really not the case. Also I highly doubt "closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests" is what actual pagans do. They're capable of being just as universalist as any other religion."</p> <p>While there are definitely non-authoritarian branches of paganism, the ones that have been speaking the loudest in recent years have been the ones that affiliate themselves with far-right politics. In fact, many of them act much like the xenophobic Christian nationalists you dislike so much, but with different images and names swapped out for Christian ones. Same ideology but re-skinned to reflect their identity-centric narrative. I suspect some of them really aren't spiritual at all and are using this as a vehicle to justify their political views, but I'm sure there are also many who sincerely believe what they preach.</p> <p>Diobono: "that's exactly why i don't like them much, pagan religions focus way too much on 6 values for my liking , those ideas can lend themselves easily to a highly nationalistic bent and i much prefer universalism because closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests is not my cup of tea much, globalism problems aside."</p> <p>I think a good model for pagan religions to follow would be Hinduism. It was able to successfully compete against Abrahamic religions in India because it transformed itself over time. It became less literal, less tribalistic, and more contemplative. I think the best religions are the ones that encourage deep philosophical inquiry rather than blind adherance to dogma. This was lacking in Puritanism (the branch of Christianity responsible for much of modern American protestantism), and it's lacking in modern right-wing pagan movements as well.</p> <p>snow: "In Wicca, for example, there's no dogma or universal rules that practitioners must follow. The one moral "rule" they mostly adhere to is "an it harm none, do what ye will." Theres also no hierarchy of authority or organizational structure in Wicca (contrary to the Catholic Church for example)."</p> <p>A lot of self-identified pagans would be annoyed that you grouped Wicca in with them lol. I do think Wicca should be considered a separate religion because it's explicitly a new tradition that syncretizes older ones.</p>
Replying to post #6021 by Zeego

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/19 (Sun) 16:50:29 #6000
	the big emphasis on punition and guilt might be one of the big difference between christianism and paganism, indeed. personally i am not a big fan of reconstruction of rituals i had been interested in paganism because of it's relation with romantism (including romantic philosophy), by my admiration for Rousseau and Nietzsche (two philosopher that made revival antics ideals) and by my lecture of the french philosopher Alain de Benoist. i am inspired by pagan principle of bravery, valuation of life and will,determinsim, momento mori ethic and collectivist worldview rather than a pro-ritual ( i am kind of skeptic about this rituals and see it as ridiculous for most). but if you want to talk more about it i would gladly talk with you on discord.

Editing post #6000 by fg <p> the big emphasis on punition and guilt might be one of the big difference between christianism and paganism, indeed. personally i am not a big fan of reconstruction of rituals i had been interested in paganism because of it's relation with romantism (including romantic philosophy), by my admiration for Rousseau and Nietzsche (two philosopher that made revival antics ideals) and by my lecture of the french philosopher Alain de Benoist. i am inspired by pagan principle of bravery, valuation of life and will,determinsim, momento mori ethic and collectivist worldview rather than a pro-ritual ( i am kind of skeptic about this rituals and see it as ridiculous for most). but if you want to talk more about it i would gladly talk with you on discord.</p>
Replying to post #6000 by fg

	~snow~ 2019/05/19 (Sun) 16:27:52 #5999
	Fg -- I guess I was thinking more neo-paganism/modern paganism than ancient paganism when I said that. What I mean by less authoritarian is how you don't have the whole "do x activities and don't do y activities or a god will torture you for eternity" kind of mentality in most neo-pagan religions (at least to my knowledge). In Wicca, for example, there's no dogma or universal rules that practitioners must follow. The one moral "rule" they mostly adhere to is "an it harm none, do what ye will." Theres also no hierarchy of authority or organizational structure in Wicca (contrary to the Catholic Church for example). Also, the reconstructionist religions, like Celtic Reconstructionism for example, mostly encourage the revival of ancient traditions (like dances, songs, poetry, games, and spiritual rituals) while not having much focus on dogma or formal structure. Some pagan roots may be authoritarian though. And I do think you're probably right about the difference in their gods also contributing to their differing levels of toxicity.

Editing post #5999 by *~snow~* <p>Fg -- I guess I was thinking more neo-paganism/modern paganism than ancient paganism when I said that. What I mean by less authoritarian is how you don't have the whole "do x activities and don't do y activities or a god will torture you for eternity" kind of mentality in most neo-pagan religions (at least to my knowledge). In Wicca, for example, there's no dogma or universal rules that practitioners must follow. The one moral "rule" they mostly adhere to is "an it harm none, do what ye will." Theres also no hierarchy of authority or organizational structure in Wicca (contrary to the Catholic Church for example). Also, the reconstructionist religions, like Celtic Reconstructionism for example, mostly encourage the revival of ancient traditions (like dances, songs, poetry, games, and spiritual rituals) while not having much focus on dogma or formal structure. Some pagan roots may be authoritarian though. And I do think you're probably right about the difference in their gods also contributing to their differing levels of toxicity.</p>
Replying to post #5999 by *~snow~*

	~snow~ 2019/05/19 (Sun) 16:22:14 #5998
	I think it's fair that you don't like pagan religions for those reasons, but Christianity also has those traits, or "6 values" as you call them. I also think it's funny that you think pagans are more likely to be nationalistic than Christians, because as evidenced by Christian nationalists in America, that's really not the case. Also I highly doubt "closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests" is what actual pagans do. They're capable of being just as universalist as any other religion. "rational inquiry into this stuff seems more likely than it's neopagan counterpart" That's a pretty bold claim to make. There are undoubtedly pagans who don't rationally scrutinize their beliefs, just as there are many Christians who don't rationally scrutinize their beliefs, but there are also many atheists, agnostics, and pantheists who practice pagan religions. Often times people discard the magical parts and just follow the rituals/traditions because they like the culture or like the sense of peace and community it gives them (similarly to the Christians who do rationally examine their beliefs). Even if you don't personally like those things, for many people it makes them happy and fulfilled. I don't think that's a justification for the lack of logic, but it's not harming anybody like Christianity often does.

Editing post #5998 by *~snow~* <p>I think it's fair that you don't like pagan religions for those reasons, but Christianity also has those traits, or "6 values" as you call them. I also think it's funny that you think pagans are more likely to be nationalistic than Christians, because as evidenced by Christian nationalists in America, that's really not the case. Also I highly doubt "closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests" is what actual pagans do. They're capable of being just as universalist as any other religion.<br /> <br /> "rational inquiry into this stuff seems more likely than it's neopagan counterpart"<br /> <br /> That's a pretty bold claim to make. There are undoubtedly pagans who don't rationally scrutinize their beliefs, just as there are many Christians who don't rationally scrutinize their beliefs, but there are also many atheists, agnostics, and pantheists who practice pagan religions. Often times people discard the magical parts and just follow the rituals/traditions because they like the culture or like the sense of peace and community it gives them (similarly to the Christians who do rationally examine their beliefs). Even if you don't personally like those things, for many people it makes them happy and fulfilled. I don't think that's a justification for the lack of logic, but it's not harming anybody like Christianity often does.</p>
Replying to post #5998 by *~snow~*

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/19 (Sun) 15:39:27 #5994
	"I'm saying superstition is mostly not emphasized or recognised anymore by 'official' theological stuff, and that those irrational things you exposed are supposedly dogmas that have hundred of years of disputes and quaestiones built around them, and they try to rationally justify them even though that may seem silly and paradoxical, compare that to pagans i don't see it much." Plato himself on hades/undergrown for basing his theory of reminiscence. today the justification for paganism is more pragmatic than epistemic. christianism was created after the appearance of epistemology so of course there is more epistemological rationalisation about it than paganism. paganism pragmatic rationality is not only communautary oriented (which is pragmatic we have to take in account that human is a social/ political animal unlike actual liberalism which is the other side of the coin of christian religious individualism) it's also more pragmatic in the distinction desire/filliation. there is Aphrodite and Héra in polythéism while christiannity invented that stupid confusion between love, desire and filliation. paganism is also far less toxic in women representation, despite being differentialist and not feminist paganism recognize women's kind of wisdom. Athena is the godess of wisdom and nordic paganism emphatize a lot on women's erudition and prudence.

Editing post #5994 by fg <p>"I'm saying superstition is mostly not emphasized or recognised anymore by 'official' theological stuff, and that those irrational things you exposed are supposedly dogmas that have hundred of years of disputes and quaestiones built around them, and they try to rationally justify them even though that may seem silly and paradoxical, compare that to pagans i don't see it much." Plato himself on hades/undergrown for basing his theory of reminiscence. today the justification for paganism is more pragmatic than epistemic. christianism was created after the appearance of epistemology so of course there is more epistemological rationalisation about it than paganism. paganism pragmatic rationality is not only communautary oriented (which is pragmatic we have to take in account that human is a social/ political animal unlike actual liberalism which is the other side of the coin of christian religious individualism) it's also more pragmatic in the distinction desire/filliation. there is Aphrodite and Héra in polythéism while christiannity invented that stupid confusion between love, desire and filliation. paganism is also far less toxic in women representation, despite being differentialist and not feminist paganism recognize women's kind of wisdom. Athena is the godess of wisdom and nordic paganism emphatize a lot on women's erudition and prudence.</p>
Replying to post #5994 by fg

Diobono int 5w4 ili 2019/05/19 (Sun) 14:57:07 #5993
I'm saying superstition is mostly not emphasized or recognised anymore by 'official' theological stuff, and that those irrational things you exposed are supposedly dogmas that have hundred of years of disputes and quaestiones built around them, and they try to rationally justify them even though that may seem silly and paradoxical, compare that to pagans i don't see it much. 'who says they are supposed to' Pretty sure any believer is supposed to have a faith that is not negligent, and a part of not having that would be to question what you believe in rationally because 'faith seeks understanding' means you start from no 'evidence' and then built up from there, to corroborate the contents of your faith, now naturally this doesn't work that well nowadays because of scientific developments but there isn't necessarily a contradiction in terms, my point is that rational inquiry into this stuff seems more likely than it's neopagan counterpart 'level of mental gymnastics to reconcile various bible stuff' I Agree there but the way the interpretation of texts works is through hermeneutics, the literal way is the one that is supposed to be just the first level, following with an allegorical way and then a 3rd way atleast according to medioeval hermeneutics if i recall, anyway the literal level is what the american conservative types focus on because of political reasons. 'community comfort historical connections' that's exactly why i don't like them much, pagan religions focus way too much on 6 values for my liking , those ideas can lend themselves easily to a highly nationalistic bent and i much prefer universalism because closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests is not my cup of tea much, globalism problems aside.

Editing post #5993 by Diobono <p>I'm saying superstition is mostly not emphasized or recognised anymore by 'official' theological stuff, and that those irrational things you exposed are supposedly dogmas that have hundred of years of disputes and quaestiones built around them, and they try to rationally justify them even though that may seem silly and paradoxical, compare that to pagans i don't see it much.</p> <p>'who says they are supposed to'</p> <p>Pretty sure any believer is supposed to have a faith that is not negligent, and a part of not having that would be to question what you believe in rationally because 'faith seeks understanding' means you start from no 'evidence' and then built up from there, to corroborate the contents of your faith, now naturally this doesn't work that well nowadays because of scientific developments but there isn't necessarily a contradiction in terms, my point is that rational inquiry into this stuff seems more likely than it's neopagan counterpart </p> <p>'level of mental gymnastics to reconcile various bible stuff'</p> <p>I Agree there but the way the interpretation of texts works is through hermeneutics, the literal way is the one that is supposed to be just the first level, following with an allegorical way and then a 3rd way atleast according to medioeval hermeneutics if i recall, anyway the literal level is what the american conservative types focus on because of political reasons.</p> <p>'community comfort historical connections'</p> <p>that's exactly why i don't like them much, pagan religions focus way too much on 6 values for my liking , those ideas can lend themselves easily to a highly nationalistic bent and i much prefer universalism because closing ourself off in our little countries and worshipping tree forests is not my cup of tea much, globalism problems aside.</p> <p> </p> <p> </p>
Replying to post #5993 by Diobono

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/19 (Sun) 14:16:39 #5991
	i agree with you a lot on this subject, snow, but i consider you affiliation of paganism and non-authoritarianism incorrect. Roman paganism is often a lot based on cesarism and nazism had a lot of paganist tendencies (roman, greek and nordic). but i would agree that there is a big difference between christianism and paganism. i think it is mainly the rapport between politics and religion. pagan believed in god of a city (like Athena), gods are mainly a way to make the link between the comunity more solid while christiannism's universalism believe that their god is the god of everyone and that's why they are more prone to do religious war than paganist and be "intolerant". Paganist views are less toxic imo mostly because god it at the service of human civilization for them while it tend to be the opposite for christianity.

Editing post #5991 by fg <p>i agree with you a lot on this subject, snow, but i consider you affiliation of paganism and non-authoritarianism incorrect. Roman paganism is often a lot based on cesarism and nazism had a lot of paganist tendencies (roman, greek and nordic). but i would agree that there is a big difference between christianism and paganism. i think it is mainly the rapport between politics and religion. pagan believed in god of a city (like Athena), gods are mainly a way to make the link between the comunity more solid while christiannism's universalism believe that their god is the god of everyone and that's why they are more prone to do religious war than paganist and be "intolerant". Paganist views are less toxic imo mostly because god it at the service of human civilization for them while it tend to be the opposite for christianity.</p>
Replying to post #5991 by fg

	~snow~ 2019/05/19 (Sun) 14:00:50 #5990
	"it's alot less rational than christianity and theology lmao, how are their principles not artificial" It's literally on the exact same level of irrational as Christianity. There are Christians who believe wine magically becomes blood, prayers have power, demons are real, the miracles in the bible really happened (including resurrection, a flood that is scientifically impossible, an exodus that never happened historically, walking on water, zombies walking around, etc.). Not to mention the level of mental gymnastics it takes to reconcile all of the problems with the bible. The only difference is that Christianity is more mainstream so it's more conventional and may appear to be more rational because of the bandwagon fallacy. Also, I'm aware not all Christians believe in this stuff, but many do, and to say that they're not following Christianity correctly would be a no true scotsman fallacy. "as Anselm says faith seeks understanding" But isn't faith just belief without evidence? "atleast christians rationally interrogate their dogmas instead of hugging trees, (or atleast they are supposed to)" Who says they're any more "supposed to" than Pagans? Sure you have intellectual Christians but you also have people like Ken Ham.... I'm honestly not even convinced it's possible to fully rationally interrogate Christianity and still remain a believing Christian. And lol "hugging trees"? I'm pretty sure that's not actually what they do, but I'd much rather have people hugging trees than using their faith in politics to control other people (Like American conservative Christians). The biggest difference between Christianity and Pagan religions, to me, is that Pagan religions are generally far less toxic. Christianity can often be authoritarian and dogmatic. Meanwhile, most neo-Pagan religions have the positive qualities of religion (comfort, community, historical connections, unconditional positive regard, etc.) without the authoritarianism or dogma. That personally gives me more respect for those religions than Christianity.

Editing post #5990 by *~snow~* <p>"it's alot less rational than christianity and theology lmao, how are their principles not artificial"<br /> <br /> It's literally on the exact same level of irrational as Christianity. There are Christians who believe wine magically becomes blood, prayers have power, demons are real, the miracles in the bible really happened (including resurrection, a flood that is scientifically impossible, an exodus that never happened historically, walking on water, zombies walking around, etc.). Not to mention the level of mental gymnastics it takes to reconcile all of the problems with the bible. The only difference is that Christianity is more mainstream so it's more conventional and may appear to be more rational because of the bandwagon fallacy. Also, I'm aware not all Christians believe in this stuff, but many do, and to say that they're not following Christianity correctly would be a no true scotsman fallacy.<br /> <br /> "as Anselm says faith seeks understanding"<br /> <br /> But isn't faith just belief without evidence?<br /> <br /> "atleast christians rationally interrogate their dogmas instead of hugging trees, (or atleast they are supposed to)"<br /> <br /> Who says they're any more "supposed to" than Pagans? Sure you have intellectual Christians but you also have people like Ken Ham.... I'm honestly not even convinced it's possible to fully rationally interrogate Christianity and still remain a believing Christian. And lol "hugging trees"? I'm pretty sure that's not actually what they do, but I'd much rather have people hugging trees than using their faith in politics to control other people (Like American conservative Christians).<br /> <br /> The biggest difference between Christianity and Pagan religions, to me, is that Pagan religions are generally far less toxic. Christianity can often be authoritarian and dogmatic. Meanwhile, most neo-Pagan religions have the positive qualities of religion (comfort, community, historical connections, unconditional positive regard, etc.) without the authoritarianism or dogma. That personally gives me more respect for those religions than Christianity.</p>
Replying to post #5990 by *~snow~*

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/19 (Sun) 12:11:24 #5982
	" The theological and christian mindset is unironically more rational than whatever this edgy identity politics stuff is, atleast christians rationally interrogate their dogmas instead of hugging trees, (or atleast they are supposed to) as Anselm says faith seeks understanding'" lol . you are funny. Any Intellectual seek understanding . christian or not. pagan or not. atheist or not. not all pro pagan believe in magic . if you tell it i could say that christian believe in magic because they believe in prayer.

Editing post #5982 by fg <p>"</p> <p>The theological and christian mindset is unironically more rational than whatever this edgy identity politics stuff is, atleast christians rationally interrogate their dogmas instead of hugging trees, (or atleast they are supposed to) as Anselm says faith seeks understanding'" lol . you are funny. Any Intellectual seek understanding . christian or not. pagan or not. atheist or not. not all pro pagan believe in magic . if you tell it i could say that christian believe in magic because they believe in prayer.</p>
Replying to post #5982 by fg

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/05/18 (Sat) 14:46:16 #5961
	i did not convert to paganism i remain atheist. i find the concept interesting and like intellectual of this movment. religion don't need theology Auguste Compte created a religion without any theology for example. those traditions were not invented in the 20 th century it's rather a package of principle of another time depending on which paganism you are affilated to. paganism is an historical reconstruction i agree (just like nation) but i prefer a myth conscient of it's artificiality (with principle that are not) rather than believing in a lie. paganism is rather an identitary movment based on a collective old imagery and old principle rather than theology and that's one of the main reason i consider it as superior of christianism.

Editing post #5961 by fg <p>i did not convert to paganism i remain atheist. i find the concept interesting and like intellectual of this movment. religion don't need theology Auguste Compte created a religion without any theology for example. those traditions were not invented in the 20 th century it's rather a package of principle of another time depending on which paganism you are affilated to. paganism is an historical reconstruction i agree (just like nation) but i prefer a myth conscient of it's artificiality (with principle that are not) rather than believing in a lie. paganism is rather an identitary movment based on a collective old imagery and old principle rather than theology and that's one of the main reason i consider it as superior of christianism.</p>
Replying to post #5961 by fg

date	username	vote
22/07/24 22:12	Tman	ENJ
19/07/04 02:58	LadyX	ISFP
20/05/01 03:04	tch	NJ
19/05/22 19:17	Jacobus	ESxx
19/05/19 15:42	fg	ENTJ
19/05/19 06:32	Diobono	xSxP

date	username	vote
20/05/01 03:03	tch	INTJ
22/07/24 22:11	Tman	ENTJ
19/05/19 15:44	fg	INTJ

date	username	vote
20/05/01 03:03	tch	6w5
19/07/04 02:58	LadyX	2w3
22/07/24 22:11	Tman	8w7
19/05/19 12:12	fg	6w5
19/05/19 06:30	Diobono	6wb

date	username	vote
22/07/24 22:11	Tman	sx/so
19/07/04 02:58	LadyX	so/sx
19/05/19 15:45	fg	so/sx

date	username	vote
22/07/24 22:11	Tman	864
19/07/04 02:58	LadyX	297

date	username	vote
19/11/15 18:34	Tman	EIE
19/05/18 10:32	fg	EIE

date	username	vote
22/07/24 22:12	Tman	VFEL