Ludwig van Beethoven ~ Sakinorva Databank

The Sakinorva Databank

Ludwig van Beethoven

Composer

in Music and Performing Arts

Ludwig van Beethoven ~ Sakinorva Databank

Ludwig van Beethoven

Composer

Music and Performing Arts

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function

ennea

variant

socio

psyche

INTJ 7

ISTP 1

INFP 1

4w5 9

5w4 2

8w9 1

sx/sp 7

sp/sx 1

LII 9

ILI 5

ESI 1

LSI 1

EIE 1

SLE 1

VELF 3

LEVF 1

FVLE 1

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total votes 69

16

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18

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	Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE 2019/11/15 (Fri) 12:59:46 #7408
	Beethoven was a believer in the Enlightenment, Napoleon "betrayed" the Enlightenment. That Enlightenment values are compatible with Alpha values is coincedental. Beethoven, either way, was not a typical follower of the Enlightenment and was quite the elitist (i.e. aristocratic in the Reinin sense). Beethoven saw himself as a conquering hero of music, which might explain why he originally admired Napoleon and was distressed when Napoleon declared himself emperor. This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument.

Editing post #7408 by Jacobus <p>Beethoven was a believer in the Enlightenment, Napoleon "betrayed" the Enlightenment. That Enlightenment values are compatible with Alpha values is coincedental. Beethoven, either way, was not a typical follower of the Enlightenment and was quite the elitist (i.e. aristocratic in the Reinin sense). Beethoven saw himself as a conquering hero of music, which might explain why he originally admired Napoleon and was distressed when Napoleon declared himself emperor.</p> <p>This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument.</p>
Replying to post #7408 by Jacobus

	Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE 2019/11/15 (Fri) 12:59:37 #7407
	Beethoven was a believer in the Enlightenment, Napoleon "betrayed" the Enlightenment. That Enlightenment values are compatible with Alpha values is coincedental. Beethoven, either way, was not a typical follower of the Enlightenment and was quite the elitist (i.e. aristocratic in the Reinin sense). Beethoven saw himself as a conquering hero of music, which might explain why he originally admired Napoleon and was distressed when Napoleon declared himself emperor. This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument.

Editing post #7407 by Jacobus <p>Beethoven was a believer in the Enlightenment, Napoleon "betrayed" the Enlightenment. That Enlightenment values are compatible with Alpha values is coincedental. Beethoven, either way, was not a typical follower of the Enlightenment and was quite the elitist (i.e. aristocratic in the Reinin sense). Beethoven saw himself as a conquering hero of music, which might explain why he originally admired Napoleon and was distressed when Napoleon declared himself emperor.</p> <p>This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument.</p>
Replying to post #7407 by Jacobus

	fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST 2019/11/15 (Fri) 01:23:24 #7405
	Phsc, despite being right about your constatation about the character of Jacobus making a process of intention was not necesseary and ended up you having a pathetic individual using an argument of authority against you. Him typing mostly people that he believe to be EIE can be compared to you typing mostly people that you consider LII.it is a normal or at least comprehensible behavior to type people that you consider sharing your type first. About the character of Beethoven i would say that his typing lack of pertinence because of his lack of culture and analysis "infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni)." is his argument . But Beethoven is an artist and everyone have to be expressive and figurative in art. He is doing the same mistake as lady X, confusing the particular application of the ideal and the ideal. In comparison with Wagner (ultimate EIE), Beta in his music and in his positions it is almost impossible to defend Beethoven as EIE. The example of Napoleo that phsc use is a good example to proove that beethoven is not Beta but an Alpha. General Bonaparte was the Alpha Liberal Compatible Napoleo while Napoleo the emperor was the sublimation of Betaness spirit. For a beta (like me) the heroic General Bonaparte is good but only a step before the emperor Napoleo shows up and instaure the organicism and patriotic that the army had to the political level to make reach his country above other nations . While today Alpha and other quadra tend to split this character in two different entity, one is good one is bad, like if Napoleo was Anakin who became Darth Vader. Alpha, Gamma, Beta and Delta have a totally different conception of freedom. For a Beta Napoleo is not especially an ennemy of freedom, since freedom is considered as the ability to act of the whole and the participation of the part to the sum, since France was an Empire with an ability of action more important than it never had in history in the eye of a Beta Napoleo is the quintessence of Freedom.

Editing post #7405 by fg <p>Phsc, despite being right about your constatation about the character of Jacobus making a process of intention was not necesseary and ended up you having a pathetic individual using an argument of authority against you. Him typing mostly people that he believe to be EIE can be compared to you typing mostly people that you consider LII.it is a normal or at least comprehensible behavior to type people that you consider sharing your type first. About the character of Beethoven i would say that his typing lack of pertinence because of his lack of culture and analysis "infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni)." is his argument . But Beethoven is an artist and everyone have to be expressive and figurative in art. He is doing the same mistake as lady X, confusing the particular application of the ideal and the ideal. In comparison with Wagner (ultimate EIE), Beta in his music and in his positions it is almost impossible to defend Beethoven as EIE. The example of Napoleo that phsc use is a good example to proove that beethoven is not Beta but an Alpha. General Bonaparte was the Alpha Liberal Compatible Napoleo while Napoleo the emperor was the sublimation of Betaness spirit. For a beta (like me) the heroic General Bonaparte is good but only a step before the emperor Napoleo shows up and instaure the organicism and patriotic that the army had to the political level to make reach his country above other nations . While today Alpha and other quadra tend to split this character in two different entity, one is good one is bad, like if Napoleo was Anakin who became Darth Vader. Alpha, Gamma, Beta and Delta have a totally different conception of freedom. For a Beta Napoleo is not especially an ennemy of freedom, since freedom is considered as the ability to act of the whole and the participation of the part to the sum, since France was an Empire with an ability of action more important than it never had in history in the eye of a Beta Napoleo is the quintessence of Freedom.</p>
Replying to post #7405 by fg

	Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE 2019/11/14 (Thu) 22:32:33 #7401
	Phsc, this pathetic and childish hysterical outburst is unbecoming of an LII. As your senior in age and wisdom, I am willing to forgive you for this little mistake and become your friend if you promise to take the stick out of your ass and accept that I am INFJ EIE VELF &tc. I imagine that continuing with these petty arguments can only lower the quality of discussion further. Sound good?

Editing post #7401 by Jacobus <p>Phsc, this pathetic and childish hysterical outburst is unbecoming of an LII. As your senior in age and wisdom, I am willing to forgive you for this little mistake and become your friend if you promise to take the stick out of your ass and accept that I am INFJ EIE VELF &tc. I imagine that continuing with these petty arguments can only lower the quality of discussion further.</p> <p>Sound good?</p>
Replying to post #7401 by Jacobus

	Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE 2019/11/14 (Thu) 20:53:18 #7391
	I don't see how Beethoven could have "hated" Se. Te or Si, maybe, but not Se. He had his "heroic" period and originally dedicated the Eroica to Napoleon, for fuck's sake. LIIs can be stubborn and anti-authority, sure, but that is out of (generally speaking) a democratic character that resents anyone forcing their will on others. LIIs can be stern, but they do not dominate. As for Beethoven's view of Se, I present the following quotes: "Power is the moral principle of those who excel others, and it is also mine." “Courage! In spite of all bodily weaknesses my spirit shall rule." "[Two of his friends are] ...merely instruments on which to play when I feel inclined." "I want to seize fate by the throat." All of these are from when he was younger, and may be more reflective of moods than consistent beliefs, but they are surely not the words of a person with Se-PoLR. Beethoven loved power, and admired those with stronger Se than he. You have more knowledge of music theory than I do, that I will admit. Perhaps typological theory as well, but that's hardly impressive. What I can say with certainty is that I know people far better than you do. But, writing all this out is boring and a waste of time (especially now that I had to type this out again from memory after being logged out while writing it), so I'll stop here instead of providing a proper response to your usual wall-of-text. I will add one more thing, however, since you continue to invent these pseudo-psychological fictions for me: you are a weak nobody conscious of having nothing of worth to give to the world, and so you present yourself as a sort of arbiter of trivia online and throw little fits whenever someone diverges too far from your rigid and narrow way of thinking. Oh, and here are those epubs, in which Beethoven's valuing of Fe and Ni, and undervaluing of Si, are consistently demonstrated: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D00C4C3A9F636859B68E3EC5EFA38E5E http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7A90698614FF0A3B9B55818679616ADE

Editing post #7391 by Jacobus <p>I don't see how Beethoven could have "hated" Se. Te or Si, maybe, but not Se. He had his "heroic" period and originally dedicated the Eroica to Napoleon, for fuck's sake. LIIs can be stubborn and anti-authority, sure, but that is out of (generally speaking) a democratic character that resents anyone forcing their will on others. LIIs can be stern, but they do not dominate. </p> <p>As for Beethoven's view of Se, I present the following quotes:</p> <p>"<em>Power </em>is the moral principle of those who excel others, and it is also mine."</p> <p>“Courage! In spite of all bodily weaknesses my spirit shall rule."</p> <p>"[Two of his friends are] ...merely instruments on which to play when I feel inclined."</p> <p>"I want to seize fate by the throat."</p> <p>All of these are from when he was younger, and may be more reflective of moods than consistent beliefs, but they are surely not the words of a person with Se-PoLR. Beethoven loved power, and admired those with stronger Se than he.</p> <p>You have more knowledge of music theory than I do, that I will admit. Perhaps typological theory as well, but that's hardly impressive. What I can say with certainty is that I know people far better than you do. But, writing all this out is boring and a waste of time (especially now that I had to type this out again from memory after being logged out while writing it), so I'll stop here instead of providing a proper response to your usual wall-of-text. I will add one more thing, however, since you continue to invent these pseudo-psychological fictions for me: you are a weak nobody conscious of having nothing of worth to give to the world, and so you present yourself as a sort of arbiter of trivia online and throw little fits whenever someone diverges too far from your rigid and narrow way of thinking.</p> <p>Oh, and here are those epubs, in which Beethoven's valuing of Fe and Ni, and undervaluing of Si, are consistently demonstrated:</p> <p><a href="http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D00C4C3A9F636859B68E3EC5EFA38E5E">http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D00C4C3A9F636859B68E3EC5EFA38E5E</a></p> <p><a href="http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7A90698614FF0A3B9B55818679616ADE">http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7A90698614FF0A3B9B55818679616ADE</a></p>
Replying to post #7391 by Jacobus

	Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE 2019/11/14 (Thu) 17:04:35 #7389
	I've skimmed through two seperate biographies of Beethoven (Swafford and Solomon, respectively) and could find no justification for him being either LII or 5w4. He was quite pronouncedly an EIE 4w5, albeit an awkward and somewhat insecure one. His unusual public behavior was not done in ignorance or complete disregard of social standards, but were dramatic and consciously done acts in which he played the part of a rebel, at least partly. LII, ILI, and LSI types can have emotional disorders, but not in the way that Beethoven displayed his. Beethoven was completely expressive in his emotions (he was noted for his passionate and emotive eyes, for example). He zealously sought intimacy and developed a large number of close friends, although these were often broken off quickly as a result of Beethoven's suddenly changeable moods. He was absolutely not a restrained personality, but overbearing and gregarious, especially with friends and close acquaintances. It's his music that is especially demonstrative of his personlity. Beethoven's music shows a seemingly infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni). This is particularly true of the late period (such as the Missa solemnis or his 15th String Quartet). An LII composerwould be practically the opposite, focusing on a rigorous intellectualism or rigid perfectionism instead. Bach (likely LSI) is viewed by those relatively unknowledgable of classical music as being emotionless is due to how muted Fe is in his music. Beethoven is possibly only outdone by Wagner (a devotee of Beethoven, and the 9th Symphony in particular) in terms of Fe musical dramaticism.

Editing post #7389 by Jacobus <p>I've skimmed through two seperate biographies of Beethoven (Swafford and Solomon, respectively) and could find no justification for him being either LII or 5w4. He was quite pronouncedly an EIE 4w5, albeit an awkward and somewhat insecure one. His unusual public behavior was not done in ignorance or complete disregard of social standards, but were dramatic and consciously done acts in which he played the part of a rebel, at least partly. LII, ILI, and LSI types can have emotional disorders, but not in the way that Beethoven displayed his. Beethoven was completely expressive in his emotions (he was noted for his passionate and emotive eyes, for example). He zealously sought intimacy and developed a large number of close friends, although these were often broken off quickly as a result of Beethoven's suddenly changeable moods. He was absolutely not a restrained personality, but overbearing and gregarious, especially with friends and close acquaintances.</p> <p>It's his music that is especially demonstrative of his personlity. Beethoven's music shows a seemingly infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni). This is particularly true of the late period (such as the Missa solemnis or his 15th String Quartet). An LII composerwould be practically the opposite, focusing on a rigorous intellectualism or rigid perfectionism instead. Bach (likely LSI) is viewed by those relatively unknowledgable of classical music as being emotionless is due to how muted Fe is in his music. Beethoven is possibly only outdone by Wagner (a devotee of Beethoven, and the 9th Symphony in particular) in terms of Fe musical dramaticism.</p>
Replying to post #7389 by Jacobus

	strawberry crisis enfp 7 2019/01/14 (Mon) 20:24:43 #4626
	I don't know what the context is for "spontaneity" weighed against "rigor" in your context, fg, but it's important to keep in mind that perceiving will not translate to spontaneous in every sense of the word because they really aren't the same thing. MBTI Step II names a subfacet of J/P called spontaneous vs. scheduled, and it aims to separate an attitude that is routine-bound and predecided from one that does whatever it wants whenever it wants. I noticed, like lvna, that you mention "artistic creation," and I feel like he hits the nail on the head when he says that this one part of him may not necessarily reflect his being as a whole. A lot of artists have this actually, where they may be extremely deliberate, careful, methodical, and perfectionistic about their work, but it doesn't actually reflect much on their full character. This is really because many artists see their output as work, where their subservient devotion to their art is not really a product of their supposed rigorous lifestyle but just one that happens to be necessary—something that needs to happen. Creative styles can bend around "needing things to happen" without really demanding that from anywhere else in life, just like Beethoven when he decided not to care about presentability or consistency in his daily life. Based on whatever I could find on the Internet, it seems there was no "genuine" demand on Beethoven's part for the closure a schedule or a set of rules would bring him. It seems like he was okay with letting things go in his daily life and didn't care about customs, norms, rules, and regulations.

Editing post #4626 by strawberry crisis <p>I don't know what the context is for "spontaneity" weighed against "rigor" in your context, fg, but it's important to keep in mind that <em>perceiving</em> will not translate to spontaneous in every sense of the word because they really aren't the same thing. MBTI Step II names a subfacet of J/P called <em>spontaneous vs. scheduled</em>, and it aims to separate an attitude that is routine-bound and predecided from one that does whatever it wants whenever it wants. I noticed, like lvna, that you mention "artistic creation," and I feel like he hits the nail on the head when he says that this one part of him may not necessarily reflect his being as a whole. A lot of artists have this actually, where they may be extremely deliberate, careful, methodical, and perfectionistic about their work, but it doesn't actually reflect much on their full character. This is really because many artists see their <em>output</em> as work, where their subservient devotion to their art is not really a product of their supposed rigorous lifestyle but just one that happens to be necessary—something that needs to happen. Creative styles can bend around "needing things to happen" without really demanding that from anywhere else in life, just like Beethoven when he decided not to care about presentability or consistency in his daily life. Based on whatever I could find on the Internet, it seems there was no "genuine" demand on Beethoven's part for the closure a schedule or a set of rules would bring him. It seems like he was okay with letting things go in his daily life and didn't care about customs, norms, rules, and regulations.</p>
Replying to post #4626 by strawberry crisis

	LVNA 2019/01/14 (Mon) 18:56:53 #4624
	Stick with your conclusion if you will, but at least acknwoledge you are doing exactly what I'm warning against. There is nothing original about your manner of typing for a philosopher, and doesn't even properly integrate the warnings of Nietzsche on hoisting the abstract always above the real. Like so many other philosophers, you jeapordize not just the human soul and our view of it collectively by defining it in terms that the makers of culture will accept and hold all humans too, but the way you interact with people. I truly hope this is not how you look at others in life upon meeting them, that would be to have a brown thumb in the aspect of the human and of tending to the garden of humanity! Let your soul awash with the colors of the plants, let the luscious paradise of the world outside colonize your soul and live like the ivy plant, who entwines itself along the apple tree knowing to look beyond its fruit and to gaze down at it with appreciation, a mix of thirst for its contents, and devotion to the sky you are destined to climb towards. Only then will you see the garden from above in its grandeur: the flowers of all different colors, now lacking the perspective of difference in height from the surrounding garden will rear mosaic to your thirsty lips, and then you must love all the colors and carry them within yourself, as the contents of your internal vision ans you continue to rise up towards the sun. " Red Sun On The horizon line. It's pure delight. As The night falls upon my eyes I am running wild. When there's none to hold me tight I seek the light. Red Sun On The horizon line I am short of time. The shadows here before my eyes Still I am full of light The heart among The heart of man Can you hear the sound? The sweet echoe though the yard The sweet echoe through the land It's making that sound It's touching the ground Now it's reaching for the sky." Love to you my friend, night and day, love to you.

Editing post #4624 by LVNA <p>Stick with your conclusion if you will, but at least acknwoledge you are doing exactly what I'm warning against. There is nothing original about your manner of typing for a philosopher, and doesn't even properly integrate the warnings of Nietzsche on hoisting the abstract always above the real. Like so many other philosophers, you jeapordize not just the human soul and our view of it collectively by defining it in terms that the makers of culture will accept and hold all humans too, but the way you interact with people. I truly hope this is not how you look at others in life upon meeting them, that would be to have a brown thumb in the aspect of the human and of tending to the garden of humanity! Let your soul awash with the colors of the plants, let the luscious paradise of the world outside colonize your soul and live like the ivy plant, who entwines itself along the apple tree knowing to look beyond its fruit and to gaze down at it with appreciation, a mix of thirst for its contents, and devotion to the sky you are destined to climb towards. Only then will you see the garden from above in its grandeur: the flowers of all different colors, now lacking the perspective of difference in height from the surrounding garden will rear mosaic to your thirsty lips, and then you must love all the colors and carry them within yourself, as the contents of your internal vision ans you continue to rise up towards the sun. </p> <p> </p> <p>"</p> <p>Red Sun On<br /> The horizon line.<br /> It's pure delight.<br /> As The night falls upon my eyes<br /> I am running wild.<br /> When there's none to hold me tight<br /> I seek the light.<br /> Red Sun On<br /> The horizon line<br /> I am short of time.</p> <p>The shadows here before my eyes<br /> Still I am full of light<br /> The heart among<br /> The heart of man<br /> Can you hear the sound?</p> <p>The sweet echoe though the yard<br /> The sweet echoe through the land<br /> It's making that sound<br /> It's touching the ground<br /> Now it's reaching for the sky." </p> <p> </p> <p>Love to you my friend, night and day, love to you.</p>
Replying to post #4624 by LVNA

	LVNA 2019/01/14 (Mon) 18:34:50 #4621
	..."Is laughable to anyone who is interested into art and readed a little about artistic creation." The problem with this argument is that it immediately jumps to conclusions of psychologism in order to type, i.e., investigating the psychological background of the creation of a piece of art instead of the context within the person's life in which it was created. Because of this, it is almost as far as possible from analyzing the person within the context of themselves and their life beyond art. It's true, their manner of artistic creation can't be divorced from their personality, looked at on a holistic level, but what you are doing is what many function magicians do...zeroing in on a particular part of a person and, as Nietzsche would have said, elevating the abstracted meaning above all else in life. It's interesting that you use Nietzsche's observations as a standard here. Let's remember that if we look at Nietzsche in a manner of psychologism he himself is a mixed type between Ti and Ni. Nietzsche, while quite open-minded and many times deriding of what we would consider full Ti dominance, that is, using abstracted categories to define reality, looked at people generally through a very Ti lens. We only have to think of the Ubermenschen here, or his equating of people with certain archetypes etc. to see that Nietzsche used people as golden standards of concepts. What I will grant you is this: yes, Beethoven, in Jung's world and therefore Nietzsche's too should be identified as an Introverted Thinking dominant type, and therefore too an LII. But how does that make it impossible for him to be a Perceiver? You can't lose perspective on the whole of his behavior, and even though dimensional analysis only grasps at a sheer fraction of this whole, if we look into it in regards to Beethoven we can only emerge with I N T P. Sure, Nietzsche categorized Beethoven as someone who drew into himself until the volcano erupted and he had to express outwards in a very proctored way, but even that we might see as a P-ish use of a Ti type. It's explosive, randomized, etc. and the only heuristic it sticks to is the internal one, which can't even be articulated. @Jacobus, stop typing everyone beta. It's ridiculous. It's not the ubermenschen quadra.

Editing post #4621 by LVNA <p>..."Is laughable to anyone who is interested into art and readed a little about artistic creation." The problem with this argument is that it immediately jumps to conclusions of psychologism in order to type, i.e., investigating the psychological background of the creation of a piece of art instead of the context within the person's life in which it was created. Because of this, it is almost as far as possible from analyzing the person within the context of themselves and their life beyond art. It's true, their manner of artistic creation can't be divorced from their personality, looked at on a holistic level, but what you are doing is what many function magicians do...zeroing in on a particular part of a person and, as Nietzsche would have said, elevating the abstracted meaning above all else in life.</p> <p>It's interesting that you use Nietzsche's observations as a standard here. Let's remember that if we look at Nietzsche in a manner of psychologism he himself is a mixed type between Ti and Ni. Nietzsche, while quite open-minded and many times deriding of what we would consider full Ti dominance, that is, using abstracted categories to define reality, looked at people generally through a very Ti lens. We only have to think of the Ubermenschen here, or his equating of people with certain archetypes etc. to see that Nietzsche used people as golden standards of concepts. What I will grant you is this: yes, Beethoven, in Jung's world and therefore Nietzsche's too should be identified as an Introverted Thinking dominant type, and therefore too an LII. But how does that make it impossible for him to be a Perceiver? You can't lose perspective on the whole of his behavior, and even though dimensional analysis only grasps at a sheer fraction of this whole, if we look into it in regards to Beethoven we can only emerge with I N T P. Sure, Nietzsche categorized Beethoven as someone who drew into himself until the volcano erupted and he had to express outwards in a very proctored way, but even that we might see as a P-ish use of a Ti type. It's explosive, randomized, etc. and the only heuristic it sticks to is the internal one, which can't even be articulated. </p> <p> </p> <p>@Jacobus, stop typing everyone beta. It's ridiculous. It's not the ubermenschen quadra.</p>
Replying to post #4621 by LVNA

	strawberry crisis enfp 7 2019/01/14 (Mon) 08:23:18 #4617
	To add to that, some good examples of J composers are Bach, Stravinsky, Bartok, and Dvorak. Debussy, Beethoven, Mozart, and Prokofiev are good examples of P composers. I don't think anyone could deny that they were all geniuses and visionaries in some respect--each of their biographies makes a note of their being passionate, creative, and prodigious. There is, however, a pattern between these J composers that revolves around perseverence, deliberation, and discipline that is largely absent from the more "freeform" personalities those P composers have.

Editing post #4617 by strawberry crisis <p>To add to that, some good examples of J composers are Bach, Stravinsky, Bartok, and Dvorak. Debussy, Beethoven, Mozart, and Prokofiev are good examples of P composers.<br /> <br /> I don't think anyone could deny that they were all geniuses and visionaries in some respect--each of their biographies makes a note of their being passionate, creative, and prodigious. There is, however, a pattern between these J composers that revolves around perseverence, deliberation, and discipline that is largely absent from the more "freeform" personalities those P composers have.</p>
Replying to post #4617 by strawberry crisis

edza ENTJ 8w7 SLE 2019/01/14 (Mon) 06:50:59 #4616
@Jacobus "dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement" seems a lot more like xNFP. Beethoven, however, had the passion of a Feeler and not much else F-wise. He had bottled up intense feelings but in MBTI that's very compatible with being a T. NPs are usually the kind of visionaries who break out of structures by creating new pathways, getting movements kick started. Especially in music I feel like INTJs are more technical, structured (Brahms would be a good example). Not sure what you're getting at with Nietzsche and Kant either. Nietzsche is sort of a borderline INxx type while Kant was pretty much a token example of INTJ. Of course, count on IDR Labs to mess stuff up by trying to force Jung into MBTI classifications in counter-intuitive ways.

Editing post #4616 by edza <p>@Jacobus "dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement" seems a lot more like xNFP. Beethoven, however, had the passion of a Feeler and not much else F-wise. He had bottled up intense feelings but in MBTI that's very compatible with being a T.<br /> <br /> NPs are usually the kind of visionaries who break out of structures by creating new pathways, getting movements kick started. Especially in music I feel like INTJs are more technical, structured (Brahms would be a good example).<br /> <br /> Not sure what you're getting at with Nietzsche and Kant either. Nietzsche is sort of a borderline INxx type while Kant was pretty much a token example of INTJ. Of course, count on IDR Labs to mess stuff up by trying to force Jung into MBTI classifications in counter-intuitive ways.</p>
Replying to post #4616 by edza

	strawberry crisis enfp 7 2019/01/14 (Mon) 02:54:02 #4612
	Keirsey turned Myers-Briggs into archetypes that belong to temperaments, which would really be less distanced from what you're using (archetypes) than what I'm using (separated axes). A person can be of extremely erratic and disorganized behavior and still be a J function-wise… function-wise being the key word. Myers-Briggs has very little to do with the functions, and whatever it did have to do with them was eventually dropped because Myers couldn't come up with either a theoretical link or an observational link between her typing system and that particular sect of Jungian psychology (regarding his four functions). Beethoven's dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement is much in line with INTJ… only functions-wise. Beethoven's rebelliousness and refusal to mold to whatever restricted him--be they rules, customs, or regulations--points only to P. Being dramatic, egotistical, and visionary has nothing to do with MBTI J when isolated that way, and "INTJ" to you might not really have that much to do with Myers-Briggs INTJ either. And I think that's fine so long as that INTJ you're talking about isn't supposed to be a 1-to-1 translation to MBTI INTJ (where J would mean something divorced from an archetype). It would just belong in the IDR column.

Editing post #4612 by strawberry crisis <p>Keirsey turned Myers-Briggs into archetypes that belong to temperaments, which would really be less distanced from what you're using (archetypes) than what I'm using (separated axes).<br /> <br /> <em>A person can be of extremely erratic and disorganized behavior and still be a J function-wise</em>… function-wise being the key word. Myers-Briggs has very little to do with the functions, and whatever it <em>did</em> have to do with them was eventually dropped because Myers couldn't come up with either a theoretical link or an observational link between her typing system and that particular sect of Jungian psychology (regarding his four functions).<br /> <br /> <em>Beethoven's dramatic, egotistical and visionary </em><em>temperement</em><em> is much in line with INTJ</em>… only functions-wise. Beethoven's rebelliousness and refusal to mold to whatever restricted him--be they rules, customs, or regulations--points only to P. Being dramatic, egotistical, and visionary has nothing to do with MBTI J when isolated that way, and "INTJ" to you might not really have that much to do with Myers-Briggs INTJ either.<br /> <br /> And I think that's fine so long as that INTJ you're talking about isn't supposed to be a 1-to-1 translation to MBTI INTJ (where J would mean something divorced from an archetype). It would just belong in the IDR column.</p>
Replying to post #4612 by strawberry crisis

	strawberry crisis enfp 7 2019/01/13 (Sun) 21:46:43 #4607
	I don’t really understand. A bipolar INTJ — just like how that INTP over there is an ENTP with avoidant personality disorder? Myers-Briggs isn’t that deep. Let’s just call things they way they are: if he eats, sleeps, and breathes like a perceiver, he’s probably a perceiver. I do, however, understand that some people can be kind of hard to type in MBTI because they don't really fit its mold very well, but I really wouldn't extend this to Beethoven's behavior because he's "unstable" only in one direction along the J/P axis, and that would be toward P.

Editing post #4607 by strawberry crisis <p>I don’t really understand. A bipolar INTJ — just like how that INTP over there is an ENTP with avoidant personality disorder? Myers-Briggs isn’t that deep. Let’s just call things they way they are: if he eats, sleeps, and breathes like a perceiver, he’s probably a perceiver.<br><br> I do, however, understand that some people can be kind of hard to type in MBTI because they don't really fit its mold very well, but I really wouldn't extend this to Beethoven's behavior because he's "unstable" only in one direction along the J/P axis, and that would be toward P.</p>
Replying to post #4607 by strawberry crisis

	strawberry crisis enfp 7 2019/01/13 (Sun) 18:04:53 #4598
	In Prince Lichnowski's house in Vienna, where he lived, he was said to be stubborn. He would deliberately arrive late at meal times and he paid little attention to the way he dressed. But Beethoven was right; time for a creative artist in not marked out by the hands of a clock. Today any one of Betthoven's works is worth more than all the clocks in the world. It can be said of Ludwig van Beethoven, especially from the time of his arrival in Vienna, that he was a young man of strong personality and at times quite difficult to get on with. Both his teachers and his patrons attest to this. He was also a person of noble ideas. He was very well respected in the circles in which he moved though his treatment of moralists and critics could nevertermed as being of a polite nature. Once, when Beethoven was at the church of the Elector he had to provide piano accompaniment to certain sections of "The Lamentations ofIremiah" in a given key. This was during Holy Week 1785. He sought permission to change key and the singer agreed. The youngster then gave the new keynote with one finger and with the other hand played a series of complicated improvisations. The singer lost the keynote in the cadence. The other musicians were astonished by Beethoven's brilliance, but the singer got extremely angry and complained to the Elector. As a result, the young Ludwig was given a serious telling off for being cheeky. Posterity has tended to stylize Beethoven as a musical titan, battered and buffeted by fate. But his contemporaries, his letters and the notebooks he used to communicate during the last years of his life portray him as a humorous man who loved to eat and drink,as a slovenly and rebellious tenant, a sensitive artist and a gruff but warm-hearted friend. As a youngman Beethoven was frank to the point of rudeness. Headstrong and proud, he was never willing to conform in his behaviour... As he grew older and deafness overrtook him, the negative aspects of Beethoven's personality came to the fore. He was increasingly given to bouts of despair, the difficulties of communication made him more reserved, and he became more suspicious and distrustful of others. Ludwig van Beethoven refused to be treated like a servant. He is considered a transitional figure from the classical to romantic periods not only because of his music, which threatens to break all classical constraints at times but never does, but because of his view of his music and his status in society. His music was art. His status was that of the greatest living composer. As such, he was not one to be treated as a mere servant. He demanded to be paid what he felt he was worth, and would often withhold compositions if the person who commissioned it did not pay him the agreed-upon amount. In Harold Schonberg’s Lives of the Great Composers, Schonberg has this to say about these two musical geniuses (and I’m quoting from memory here, so if anyone owns this book and can provide me with the actual quote–in the chapter on Beethoven–I would greatly appreciate it): While Mozart would timidly knock at the servants’ entrance, waiting to gain admittance, Beethoven would kick down the front doors, sit at the head of the table, and demand to be served. A nature like his is today called insanity in the layman (invariably ignored), eccentricity in the wealthy (invariably encouraged), and artistic temperament in the composer (invariably accepted). His personal conduct could be very embarrassing. He was seen returning to a ballroom still buttoning up his trousers from a lavatory visit. Late in life he spoke of Napoleon, using very explicit language. He once threw a chair at a prince - very determined behavior, considering the nobleman was one of Beethoven's own patrons and was helping to support the composer financially. His usual disregard of conventional, external considerations often caused friction and conflict with everyone - neighbors, janitors, servants, friends, landlords, waiters, and aristocrats. (It should be clear here that he's not J, and nor is he F)

Editing post #4598 by strawberry crisis <p><em>In Prince Lichnowski's house in Vienna, where he lived, he was said to be stubborn. He would deliberately arrive late at meal times and he paid little attention to the way he dressed. But Beethoven was right; time for a creative artist </em><em>in</em><em> not marked out by the hands of a clock. Today any one of </em><em>Betthoven's</em><em> works is worth more than all the clocks in the world.<br /> <br /> It can be said of Ludwig van Beethoven, especially from the time of his arrival in Vienna, that he was a young man of strong personality and at times quite difficult to get on with. Both his teachers and his patrons attest to this. He was also a person of noble ideas. He was very well respected in the circles in which he moved though his treatment of moralists and critics could never</em><em>termed</em><em> as being of a polite nature.<br /> <br /> Once, when Beethoven was at the church of the Elector he had to provide piano accompaniment to certain sections of "The Lamentations ofIremiah</em><em>" in a given key. This was during Holy Week 1785. He sought permission to change key and the singer agreed. The youngster then gave the new keynote with one finger and with the other hand played a series of complicated improvisations. The singer lost the keynote in the cadence. The other musicians were astonished by Beethoven's brilliance, but the singer got extremely angry and complained to the Elector. As a result, the young Ludwig was given a serious telling off for being cheeky.<br /> <br /> Posterity has tended to stylize Beethoven as a musical titan, battered and buffeted by fate. But his contemporaries, his letters and the notebooks he used to communicate during the last years of his life portray him as a humorous man who loved to eat and drink,</em><em>as</em><em> a slovenly and rebellious tenant, a sensitive artist and a gruff but warm-hearted friend.<br /> <br /> As a young</em><em>man</em><em> Beethoven was frank to the point of rudeness. Headstrong and proud, he was never willing to conform in his </em><em>behaviour</em><em>... As he grew older and deafness </em><em>overrtook</em><em> him, the negative aspects of Beethoven's personality came to the fore. He was increasingly given to bouts of despair, the difficulties of communication made him more reserved, and he became more suspicious and distrustful of others.<br /> <br /> Ludwig van Beethoven refused to be treated like a servant. He is considered a transitional figure from the classical to romantic periods not only because of his music, which threatens to break all classical constraints at times but never </em><em>does,</em><em> but because of his view of his music and his status in society. His music was art. His status was that of the greatest living composer. As such, he was not one to be treated as a mere servant. He demanded to be paid what he felt he was worth, and would often withhold compositions if the person who commissioned it did not pay him the agreed-upon amount.<br /> <br /> In Harold Schonberg’s <a href="http://www.blogger.com/goog_1257113302727">Lives of the Great Composer</a><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Great-Composers-Harold-Schonberg/dp/0393038572/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257096500&sr=1-1">s</a>, Schonberg has this to say about these two musical geniuses (and I’m quoting from memory here, so if anyone owns this book and can provide me with the actual quote–in the chapter on Beethoven–I would greatly appreciate it):</em><br /> <em>While Mozart would timidly knock at the servants’ entrance, </em><br /> <em> waiting to gain admittance, Beethoven would kick down the</em><br /> <em> front doors, sit at the head of the table, and demand to </em><br /> <em> be served.</em></p> <p><em>A nature like his is today called insanity in the layman (invariably ignored), eccentricity in the wealthy (invariably encouraged), and artistic temperament in the composer (invariably accepted). His personal conduct could be very embarrassing. He was seen returning to a ballroom still buttoning up his trousers from a lavatory visit. Late in </em><em>life</em><em> he spoke of Napoleon, using very explicit language. He once threw a chair at a prince - very determined behavior, considering the nobleman was one of Beethoven's own patrons and was helping to support the composer financially. His usual disregard </em><em>of</em><em> conventional, external considerations often caused friction and conflict with everyone - neighbors, janitors, servants, friends, landlords, waiters, and aristocrats.</em><br /> <br /> (It should be clear here that he's not J, and nor is he F)</p>
Replying to post #4598 by strawberry crisis

date	username	vote
22/11/04 00:24	GIJOEBusta Cap	INTJ
20/11/10 03:13	Flower-like	EST
20/07/29 18:19	Sean91939	INTJ
20/05/05 16:38	KashifIrfanBhatti	INTJ
20/04/16 03:50	sweetphasmagloo	INFP
19/08/23 15:16	Thyssen	INTJ
19/07/08 23:35	Taco110	INTJ
19/07/09 00:58	LadyX	INTJ
19/07/08 19:22	fg	INTJ
19/01/13 20:46	LVNA	INTP
19/07/09 06:27	tch	INTJ
19/10/22 21:30	Jacobus	INFP
18/07/11 07:22	scumfuc	INTJ
19/07/25 18:30	EON	INTP
18/05/26 01:40	strawberry crisis	INTP

date	username	vote
22/11/04 00:24	GIJOEBusta Cap	INTJ
20/11/10 03:13	Flower-like	ISTP
20/07/29 18:19	Sean91939	INTJ
20/05/05 16:38	KashifIrfanBhatti	INTJ
19/08/23 15:16	Thyssen	INTJ
19/07/09 06:27	tch	INTJ
19/07/09 03:34	Taco110	INTJ
19/07/08 19:22	fg	INTJ
18/11/07 17:32	Zal	INFP

date	username	vote
22/11/04 00:24	GIJOEBusta Cap	4w5
20/11/10 03:13	Flower-like	8w9
20/07/29 18:19	Sean91939	4w5
20/05/05 16:38	KashifIrfanBhatti	4w5
20/04/16 03:50	sweetphasmagloo	4w5
19/10/22 21:43	Thyssen	5w4
19/07/09 03:34	Taco110	4w5
19/07/09 00:58	LadyX	5w4
18/07/11 07:22	scumfuc	4w5
18/05/31 03:59	EON	4w5
18/05/26 01:40	strawberry crisis	4w5

date	username	vote
22/11/04 00:24	GIJOEBusta Cap	sx/sp
20/11/10 03:13	Flower-like	sp/sx
20/07/29 18:19	Sean91939	sx/sp
20/04/16 03:50	sweetphasmagloo	sx/sp
19/08/23 15:16	Thyssen	sx/sp
19/07/09 03:34	Taco110	sx/sp
19/07/09 00:58	LadyX	sx/sp

date	username	vote
20/07/29 18:20	Sean91939	541
20/05/05 16:38	KashifIrfanBhatti	451
19/08/23 15:16	Thyssen	451
19/07/09 00:58	LadyX	541
19/01/13 19:03	ResoluteSoul	451
19/01/13 18:14	Jacobus	485

date	username	vote
22/11/04 00:24	GIJOEBusta Cap	LII
20/11/10 03:13	Flower-like	SLE
20/07/29 18:19	Sean91939	LII
20/05/05 16:38	KashifIrfanBhatti	LII
20/04/16 03:50	sweetphasmagloo	LII
20/02/02 19:23	Zazu	ILI
19/10/22 21:43	Thyssen	LII
19/10/20 23:05	tch	LII
19/07/09 03:34	Taco110	LII
19/07/08 19:22	fg	LII
19/05/07 00:02	Avalonia	LSI
19/03/23 07:47	Diobono	ILI
19/01/14 18:37	LVNA	LII
19/10/22 21:23	Jacobus	EIE
18/12/27 17:44	switchblades	ILI
18/10/10 21:56	strawberry crisis	ILI

date	username	vote
20/11/10 03:13	Flower-like	FVLE
20/08/11 13:06	Thyssen	LEVF
20/04/16 14:48	fleetingpetals1	VELF
20/04/16 03:50	sweetphasmagloo	VELF
19/10/15 20:16	Jacobus	VELF