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https://youtu.be/egLVDXvhniY?si=kivvvswDMr-7pjth

I'm sorry Berx, I break your rules, oh the voters I meant :(

Well, in another times I would give you my researches but the problem is my evident proof are gone maybe I will be write this thing in here, I don't know even when but stay tuned XD

nicotineseries

Gitchie, gitchie, ya-ya, da-da (hey, hey, hey)
Gitchie, gitchie, ya-ya, here (here)

nicotineseries

I think this is too traditional to be an enfps.

Addition: Well, if you even want to voting it as Ni/Se axis as it still. Is it not even Fi/Te axis lol this country has their citizen's is too much chatty people and liberal too.

nicotineseries

He's, this person like, right now it's a epitome of his nation itselfs, lol.

Oh, of course it's makes me remember with a someone.

nicotineseries

I such hate this, all of this. This is disturbing a lot in my opinion.

Woll Smoth

To start things off, I will open up with a quote from Hannah Strachan’s argument for Cleopatra being ESTP that I think parallels Will Smith's personality, “Cleopatra was very image-conscious and knew how to present herself in a way that would further her aims in every social context … In terms of functions, this suggests Se-Fe more than Se-Fi. In the same vein, she … align[ed] herself with Egyptian history, culture, mythology and religion, continuing each of the practices that the people expected of her and their rulers.”

To elaborate, I think that the trajectory of his career is also quite indicative of what Boye Akinwande coined “a strong cultural empiricism” in reference to Se and Fe together and in that order (in his Why Taylor Swift is ESTP article). For one example, look no further than the quote below:

Smith: “Social media demands authenticity. Social media pushes you, more and more, into having to reveal what’s true. ‘Cause if you don’t, TMZ is goin’ to. …”
[Interviewer: “… How have you maintained your authenticity?”]
Smith: “You know, it’s really interesting. I haven’t maintained my authenticity, per se. I’ve maintained my ‘character’ … the character ‘Will Smith’ signs every autograph and is always happy, and wants to see the fans, and is always in a good mood. That’s actually not authentic.”

This quote is quite indicative of Se with Fe (in accordance to the framework of both Hannah and Akinwande). There are some who may think this embrace of authenticity in the quote should necessarily somehow point to Fi, but it’s important to realize he only embraced it when “the eyes and ears of the world are starting to demand more and more authenticity.” So rather than being something that sprung from inside, Will Smith talks about authenticity and the like in a way that intertwines with the external sentiment.

If Will Smith did filter things through the prism of ‘Is this authentic to me? Is this true to who I am?’ then he would’ve likely attempted to bridge the dissonance between his constructed persona and his true self (in other words, he would’ve sought to exude more sincerity) on his own terms (and possibly much earlier). Or, at least, the persona, even if performative, would have been woven from the fabric of his genuine self (or at least in a way where he felt like it was), rather than something totally separate. Will Smith is definitely not someone who purifies his internal sentiment at the expense of external sentiment. Overall to me, Will Smith having conscious Fi (even if secondary position) doesn’t make sense.

Stepping out of the argument for a second, I will explore how Tertiary Fe in the ESTP manifests in a general sense since it has been a dearth in typology (unless if you count the ESTPs stereotypical ‘charm’, which is one typical manifestation of their Fe but it still doesn’t get to the underlying processing). So for starters, let’s look at what Fe is: a function that operates on the basis of objective sentiment (and by “objective" I don’t necessarily mean the colloquial meaning of being universally true or completely impartial, but rather I mean that the source of the feeling judgment lies outside the individual). Fe users are attuned to the Feeling environment, which lends to a consideration of external reaction and the impact on others' perceptions.

Ok so what about Fe in the tertiary position one may ask? And it’s not a bad question as ESTPs after all are not FJ types, but even in the tertiary position one still can observe that they are still operating under the spell of social norms of some sort. This doesn't imply strict adherence; as one can find many ETPs deliberately deviating from or even disrupting these norms and the like (this is individual dependent of course). Nevertheless, their initial framework/assumption with regard to Feeling stems from an understanding of external sentiment, from which they then react to, navigate, or, in some cases, rebel against for effect. Some examples to illustrate through quotes to what I mean (most of which are from IDRlabs no less):

Helen Mirren: "I decided to get a tattoo because it was the most shocking thing I could think of doing."

Helen Mirren: "You are what other people think you are. You can't avoid that."

Sasha Grey: "I enjoy the challenge of proving people wrong."

Traci Lords: "I try to keep people guessing."

David Fincher (on Kevin Spacey): "Kevin ... understands perception, how to ingratiate. He's also just naughty! ... He just has that twinkle in his eye!"

Elle Magazine (on Miley Cyrus): "She seems acutely aware of what she's doing, and how to command attention."

With these examples, the individuals quoted demonstrate an underlying awareness of how their actions are perceived by others and a tendency to operate in relation to that external sentiment. Whether it's to shock, defy expectations, ingratiate, or command attention, the initial framework involves an understanding of the "Feeling environment" and navigating within it (as well as using this understanding to achieve their goals). So even though tertiary Fe is less developed than an FJ and can manifest in ways that might seem inconsistent, its underlying motivation is still rooted in the principles of Fe. (Please note that I do not intend to make ESTPs out to be these super calculated, cold-hearted con men with no sense of integrity, that was not the point I was trying to make as I don't believe the stereotype rings true for many ESTPs in real life. Rather my intent was to showcase the ESTPs tendency to navigate on the basis of external sentiment at the times when they are using their Feeling function).

So back to Will Smith, it is my contention that he fits what I described above. Rather than filtering things through the Fi prism that I mentioned in the beginning, he more so filters things through the Fe prism of ‘How is this going to affect others? How is this going to make me come across?’ and using this feeling nexus to understand the external feeling atmosphere from which he can use to navigate, leverage from, adjust, and the like (though semi-conscious, meaning not consistently conscious with regard to it):

Smith: “Because every little thing I do is huge. I’m much more accommodating to people because I know even the slightest bump is going to be magnified tenfold.”

The Guardian: “Smith's ability to charm his way out of any given situation had already seen one high school teacher nickname him The Fresh Prince.”

Furthermore, since Fe is largely outer-focused, it naturally lends them to a keen understanding of other’s vulnerabilities (arguably to a greater degree than all the other functions, at least instinctually). As said by IDRlabs: “Fe, by directing its eloquent sensitivity outwards, … attains [an] awareness of [others] vulnerabilities.” Now that was in reference to FJ types but I still think it applies to ETPs to an extent (at least those with well-developed Feeling). Here is a good quote from Will Smith that illustrates Se-Fe awareness with Ti-like precision sandwiched in-between:

Smith: “I’m actually very good at being mean, very skilled at finding your weakest spot and ramming an ice pick into it. I’m a laser-guided, intergalactic, space-molecular, air-dispersing module for finding that particular bull’s eye. My natural instinct is to pad rather than stab. But I can be deadly.”

Overall, between Fi (navigates on the basis of internal sentiment) and Fe (navigates on the basis of external sentiment), Fe makes much more sense for Will Smith.

So after all the evidence of Will Smith being more Fe than Fi I will now shift my attention more on Te vs Ti. Per Jung: "[What] is of absolutely paramount importance [to Ti] is the ... subjective idea ... standing ... darkly before the inner vision. Its aim ... [is concerned with] the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea." Here is a quote from Will Smith that I think very much fits what Jung says regarding Ti:

Smith: “I have to be moving toward perfection. [I] don’t have to achieve it, but [I] do have to be moving toward it.”

Furthermore, as you said about the differences between Te and Ti:

“Ti judges on the basis of internal, ‘subjective’ ideas. For example, in explaining the success of the iPhone, Ti will more naturally stress the 'internal' aspects of its success such as the iPhone being associated with a certain lifestyle, with its owner being thought to have certain values (such as ingenuity and individuality), and the owner generally being 'ahead of the curve' with regards to social trends. By contrast, the Te function is more likely to stress external parameters, such as the iPhone being amongst the first phones to introduce a touchscreen and Apple’s distinct brand of aesthetics. … Here [Ti is] ultimately concerned with an internal idea that does not directly pertain to the object (in this case the phone). So Ti will seize upon the internal idea in explaining the success of the iPhone (e.g. that it invokes a certain image) and neglect or coerce external facts that might explain the success (e.g. that its screen was better than that of any competing product at the time).”

Smith: "I was in Russia ... one of the reporters tried to kiss me, and I slapped him ... so I get back, I'm pissed like that somebody think [that just] cuz you famous, they get to do whatever they want to do to you. So I'm in my room, and I have ten urgent messages from Jay-Z, right ... he's like, "Call me now!" with exclamation points ... and he sounds winded. He's like ... 'Hey, I just saw the video of you slapping to do it Russia,' he said. 'Just want you to know you'll never make a better piece of entertainment. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen,' he said. 'Me and B, we got a show tonight, and we thinking about canceling it and just staying in and watching you slap this dude.' ... We talked about it after, he was like 'it was such a breath of fresh air to see you just be authentic' ... I thought that it would be negative and everything. And in this new, yeah, social media world, it actually, the authenticity was accepted and respected, and ... that was a new thing for me." (This is from the same interview from my very first point regarding Will Smith's Se-Fe)

Based on the quote, Smith leans more towards Ti than Te. He's trying to understand the underlying principle at play in this new social media landscape. While he acknowledges the certain external facts (Jay-Z's call, the positive reception), he's not mostly focused on dissecting the quantifiable data points that led to the positive response, so to speak. He's more so prioritizing his subjective ideas of the principles behind the facts (the "why" behind the occured facts). This orientation towards an "internal" idea to explain external events aligns more closely with the characteristics of Ti as described. In other words, he is seizing upon the internal idea in explaining the "success" of his slap (e.g. that it invokes a certain image e.g. authenticity) and neglects or coerces external facts that might explain the success.

Here another quote that indicates that Smith is not as F as meets the eye:

Smith: "[What] always would make me angry [is for someone] to not have any real ... logical base for what [they're] saying."

While Will Smith has some traits one wouldn't typically expect from an ESTP, the ESTP function stack makes more sense than the ESFP one. If one feels that the idea of Will Smith being a ESTP seems far-fetched, I would like to add that Will Smith "seems" much more ESTP than Meryl Streep "seeming" ESTP, Elizabeth Olsen "seeming" ENTP, Charlotte Gainsbourg "seeming" INTP, etc. So if those typings exist on IDRlabs then Will Smith being ESTP should not be considered that far of a stretch.

nicotineseries

Alright, enough thank you again.

Woll Smoth

IDRlabs themselves have stated that not only do they not use Socionics at all saying "We don’t use Socionics at all on this site and so whatever they postulate will have no bearing on the type assessments found here", but they also say that their conceptions of the functions differs greatly from Socioncis as well saying to a commenter who used a definition of Socio Te, "you throw this notion from Socionics out there, which I read as almost the complete inverse of Jung’s idea of the Te type." So yes, IDR is VERY different from Socionics. Not only are the conceptions of the functions different but they also seek to measure different things.

Regarding your confusion, I wouldn't worry about it. No typology model is going to be fully true, in other words most typology models/theories are very flawed (whether we are talking about MBTI, Socionics, Enneagram, etc.). Think of it as seeing someone's "best fit" type, many people are not going to perfectly fit into a type in some models but they usually have a "best fit" one if you get what I mean.

nicotineseries

Someone adding this, now Thank you for adding this to my headache/confusions.
Lol
XD

nicotineseries

I think that this has Se in it's role function or even Ne? I doubt again why it is IDRlabs ISFP is SEI socionics in that entry so and why?

First of all this is confusing me for a while. the things is why not ENTJ ILE? or even ENTP SLE? ESTP ILE? Or even SLE and ILE have their stack function is (maybe) well, it's really the same or something like that.

No? So can you helping me. Actually, I thought that ENTJ SLEs are impossible that had I think the socionics had it's leading Ti function over there, ENTJ have not using Ti on their stack.

Woll Smoth

My argument for IDRlabs to move Gwen Stefani to ESFP:

Extroverted Perception

Stefani: "In the beginning ... I didn't know what I was doing at all, and I still don't. I kinda just get up there [on stage] and just do whatever comes out."

Stefani: "Well, I think we didn't even realize that we were doing this. We just kinda got here and were like, 'okay, let's go.' It's kinda fun though when you don't really realize what you're doing sometimes."

Stefani: "Every night's different. You can't tell if it's gonna be a good show or a bad show. That's what's kind of exciting, I guess, about it. You never know, [you just] get up there and see what happens."

Stefani: "We're just trying to enjoy every second of it while it's here, and we don't take one day for granted. It's just like everybody wants to be nice to us now and be our friends, and we're like, 'Okay! Tomorrow you probably won't like us, but that's cool. We'll take it while we can get it'."

Stefani: "No breaks here [on tour], but that's okay."
[Interviewer: "Performing with a broken foot; you're a trooper."]
Stefani: "We all [at the band] are [troopers] here. We've been working really hard, but this is our little chance, so we're trying to take advantage of it, you know?"

[Interviewer: "It's incredible to me that you don't have this grandmaster plan..."]
Stefani: "I don't have a plan; it's been basically chasing dangling carrots everywhere I look."

All else being equal, the quotes above showcase a preference for extroverted perception (Se/Ne) over introverted perception (Si/Ni). Moreover, if we had to pick between Se or Ne, the quotes fit Se better on the whole as it is the Se type that is the type most likely to make the most out of the given situation without mulling over it. Ne types can often get too caught up in their introspection and associations in contrast to the Se type's more (non-typological) intuitive approach of feeling the actual external situation to the fullest (as exemplified by most of the quotes). As Mary Arrington (in her article: ESFP vs ENFP, Part 2) has stated about Ne types, "because of [their] focus on multiple possible perspectives on reality at the same time, ENPs are actually quite poor at dealing with situations where it is necessary to engage with factual reality as it is happening here and now, and they can sometimes fail to take advantage of the opportunities they come across when compared with Se types."

Another thing to consider is that Ne (or just N in general), as stated by Myers, views the "immediate situation as a prison from which escape is urgently necessary," meaning that, as Boye Akinwande puts it, "NP types constantly feel a need to escape and transcend the immediate givens of any situation, even if they do not quite know how such an escape could be achieved" (for the Ne type, one of the ways this can often manifest in them is seeking ulterior viewpoints), as opposed to Se typically preferring to stay with the actual experience and be acquainted with the opportunities that arise in present reality (as exemplified by most of the quotes).

Now, obviously one can find real-life examples of transcendent Se types and more immediate-inclined Ne types, so this first section obviously isn't my main argument but rather just a starter.

Why Se over Ne

Now getting more into the actual meat of the argument. As mentioned above, while the quotes in the first section may arguably lean more towards Se on the whole, it didn't really rule out Ne (as I mentioned). One might ask while reading this 'Well do you have a more concrete example of Gwen Stefani showcasing a preference for Se over Ne?' and I say yes to that! Just as IDRlabs have said that Frank Ocean "avoids conceptualizations and associations in interviews" as evidence for S over N, same thing applies to Gwen Stefani:

[Interviewer: "Gwen, tell me how you got the name 'No Doubt'?"]
Stefani: "Well, the band's been together for about five years, and about five years ago, a guy that used to sing with us, which doesn't anymore, used to say this word, and so now that is the word we use. A really simple story, not really complex at all."

[Interviewer: "You got different lyrics and then completely different style, where does that come from?"]
Stefani: "You might wanna ask Eric about the lyrics as he does a lot of the writing and he's down there."

As IDRlabs have stated "a person is unlikely to just sit idly by as a subject pertaining to his or her dominant function comes up. It’s like a cat seeing a big chunk of red meat just lying around. One’s imagination is stimulated and one is moved to participate – to dig in and grab a chunk of meat for oneself." Her answers are not exactly what one would expect from an N dominant type, right? In the 2 examples above (both of which are from the same interview), she avoided 2 opportunities for "conceptualizations and associations". I have another example of her Se preference below:

[Interviewer: "How do you describe your sense of style?"]
Stefani: "I don't. I always hate talking about fashion, I swear. To me, fashion is something you don't talk about, it's something you do, you know what I mean? [Fashion is something] you wear and you look at."

Based on this, we can infer that her "cognition tends to be more drawn towards objects as they exist physically, experiencing them in their entirety and as they are" (As Boye Akinwande has about Se in his article: ISTP vs INTP). In this case, she doesn't "bypass" the object (in this case, fashion) to get to its associations but rather views the object as something that stands on its own terms and merits. One could also argue that there is also a bit of Fi in this quote too.

Furthermore, according to IDRlabs, Se "operate[s] off of phenomena that are ... capable of standing on their own (i.e. being thought more 'self-evident')" whereas Ne "combine[s] different (and differing) perspectives to comprise elements in the illustration of an abstract idea". Out of those descriptions, which do you think fits Gwen Stefani more based on the examples I provided? Want another quote that suggests Se?

Stefani: "To be from Orange County and try to play in LA, it was like taboo, kind of because they were like, you know, 'Oh, behind the Orange Curtain, blah blah blah.' But if you really look at it, it's all one big concrete thing. If you drive to Orange County, it's not like you're going to go through fields or anything."

Overall, the quote seems to suggest a person with a marked preference for actuality as opposed to conceptualization or abstract association. That is to say that she prefers to see the actual existence of things (the physical reality of the situation as opposed to what was intended, expected, or believed). In this case, she is emphasizing if one looks at it objectively, there is no significant physical or geographical barrier between LA and Orange County (referring to it as "one big concrete thing") despite all the history and preconceived notions between the 2 cultures.

It should be noted that cognitive processes are theoretical symbols for trying to explain certain preferences rather than ability, that is to say that Gwen Stefani isn't incapable of "Ne stuff" but rather she simply prefers "Se stuff".

I have examples of Fi if anyone want some but I decided to just keep it Se vs Ne for Stefani.

nicotineseries

Lol sorry, I seem to have misquoted the source of the evidence in my comment below. So, it was actually George MacDonald, his friend of a relative's acquaintance, aka a friend of this person's father who said that, guys. His family, especially himself, said so.

nicotineseries

This is so, quite a Feeler maybe
but I now, I don't think I should to judge other types so.

nicotineseries

I don't know, IxxP?

nicotineseries

This is "stereotypically" I think.

nicotineseries

Lol I changing my mind, thank you Woll Smoth users.

nicotineseries

“What color is your Bugatti?”
-Andrew Tate

nicotineseries

Ah, don't think my comment in here, just my opinion tho.

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Bostonma voted 1w9 for thinks helping people is stupid and dumb.

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xenine voted xSTP for Miguel Serrano.

xenine voted xNTP for Miguel Serrano.

xenine voted xSTP for .

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xenine voted ENTx for Richard Wagner.

xenine voted ISTP for John Donne.

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xenine voted ENTJ for Raymond M. Smullyan.

xenine voted INTP for Skyrim.

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xenine voted INTP for Iannis Xenakis.

xenine voted ISTP for Frithjof Schuon.

xenine voted ISTP for Rudolf Steiner.

xenine voted INFJ for Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

xenine voted INTJ for Julius Evola.

xenine voted sx/so for Novalis.

xenine voted INTP for Novalis.

gustyd voted INFJ for Ogino Chihiro / Sen.

gustyd voted LVEF for Jungian Ti type.

gustyd voted LII for Jungian Ti type.

gustyd voted sp/sx for Jungian Ti type.

gustyd voted INTP for Jungian Ti type.

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gustyd voted INTJ for Jungian Ti type.

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