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In regards to the evidence of my Lewis Carroll voters

So, now I keep seeing that people would confuse this person with XNTP types when I saw on the MBTI community especially on the Personality Database or whatever a website could easily took someting until misunderstood it. I think of those voters or even according to any systems like IDRlabs cannot take thing seriously or at least until people would search this person (Lewis Carroll) it's deeper of an iceberg, like you got to dig diver it until your understand it. I agree or understand with what user Woll Smoth vote about Princess Ariel as an Se users and I compare that with this person (Lewis Carroll) and yeah and I know can imagine that too. If you want me to elaborate all of my research and reasons, I said I mean with this according to many website and biography videos I think people would judge it with Introversion and some people would arguing "yeah he is sound kind a high Ne users" and etc etc, but isn't. I really dig diver some new information about this probably 1 years ago and I've summarized it as best I can for evidence, but some of it may be missing or lacking because I'm too lazy to write it here. So, in short, this person is incline to hereticism and spiritualism and as users Woll Smoth said about ENFJs “the ENFJ tends to have an intellectual, even scholarly, side which they use to delve into abstract problems concerning the whole of society, if not the world. In truth, most ENFJs are quite comfortable juggling complex facts and challenging situations that require a firm grasp of the theory involved.” And I think again some people maybe said that "oh, it is because he is conservative anglican pious christian and pervert? Or even bad, he is a bad person 'cus pedophilia bla bla bla..." no it is not the main REASONS and I want to tell the truth, mostly because I hardly quoted none quotes on here because he is too private as a person and only be recorded at his letters or he's acquitances and I pleased to someone don't be too quick swiftly judging any others MBTI as a bad and unappropiated because one of the cognitive functions is different which makes you differentiate between other types. Okay so next by the way I'll shorten this I now compare it with any other famous person in IDRlabs one of them is with the INTJ personality, as I get the similarity with it is Isaac Newton and I yeah I get that the analogies between their behavior, thinking and yeah probably they're had an in commonly same and insanely it is so perfect that there is no difference at all! If so, you can check the truth of what I said earlier by reading his biography, autobiography, an interview with original sources such as his relatives, siblings, etc. Until you want the most extreme level, you can search and ask in the community and try to criticize which mistakes you want to state then tell me then I will change my way of thinking and my voters and give me questions (anything) up to you so I can state which errors and where my mistakes lie. Also one of his illustrator, Sir John Tenniel said that someone who a fussy and authoritarian behavior that demands everything to be perfect until the book is published. Well, maybe at this point there will be someone who will point to evidence in the form of a biographical film, right? It's fitting that I see the community criticizing some of the inconsistencies in the behavior in the film and the personality of the person behind his work. Actually, this Mr. Charles Lutwidge Dodgson or his anonymous name known as "Lewis Carroll" is indeed very difficult for us to understand for those who are unfamiliar and don't understand how this person's way of thinking. Indeed, when I read one of his biographies, it was quite surprising and confusing why this person was one of the people I analyzed who was the most different. And yes, I began to realize that he was actually a dominant intuitive and I think he did have an abstraction in creating a work that was very irrational and dependent on someone's imagination which made me definitely put him in the dominant intuitive category (and one of his friends, a member of the Rossetti family, said so). But I thought again, Why isn't Ne dominant, ENTP maybe because he is a thinker?, so what I just said is that this person is basically very abstract and has a few percent for him to be a Sensor because he can also master the intellectual field and academic conversations or something related to that. So I sorted him back to another possibility, namely Ni is dominant in his cognitive function. But there are also people who say that he is S, including IXTJ or something like that. "Oh, why not other introverts like IXXP or IXXJ, why do you say he is in the IXTJ category, IXTX is a heartless thinker or something..." Well, that's my opinion, yes, he might use Te because he is structured in other words regarding goals and targets. As the quote from user PDB (Personalty Database) said about the Tekken 8 character Jin Kazama "I agree that Jin is Ni dom but he seems more Te-Fi>Fe-Ti. In the Tekken 6 storyline (which is controversial but it's canon regardless of what people think) he seems so contingent to marshal facts for the sake of actualizing a personal goal." or "Jin's judgment seems tailored towards measurable solutions that are tailored towards a particular end, All else being equal, when criticizing something, an INTJ is more likely to put emphasis on the practicality of the idea than an INFJ, hence why he says "Does it really make a difference?" Another thing to consider is that, as IDRlabs puts it, "INTJs have auxiliary extroverted thinking. Since their thinking is directed outwards, they prefer for their judgments and plans to be oriented towards the actionable. While their ruminations and visions might be just as lofty as those of the INFJ, the concrete takeaways from their thoughts tend to be much easier to translate into practical reality. They want to construct a clear path from abstract vision to concrete reality; to shake the world with their thoughts in a way that makes the 'impossible' possible. This fits Jin well." And well, this is the conclusion yeah that it is, and if time permits, I will look for some quotes or more or less examples in his other autobiographical books.

Woll Smoth

It's a tie really between the 2 STJ types but I simply chose ESTJ over ISTJ due to leadership and ambition focus (can apply to ISTJs as well but, all else being equal, it's more ESTJ).

Woll Smoth

I understand the INFP argument, believe me, I do, and I also am not against the idea of Bjork being INFP as there can certainly be decent case made for it (hence why I didn't vote for Bjork in IDR). However, I also think ISFP is also very possible. Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, here is a potential ISFP argument.

With regards to self-expression, IDRlabs have said the following, "as we know from Myers, Jung and van der Hoop, types who have Ne as one of their two top functions (such as INFPs) tend to find self-expression easy. ... By contrast, we know from the same authors that the concepts distilled by Ni tend to have a hard time finding an outwards expression that adequately conveys what is going on inside. ... Of all the 16 types, the ISFP is perhaps the type that is the most at odds with expressing themselves adequately, because of their Fi-Ni axis. But their difficulty with traditional modes of self-expression will frequently be made up for by ingenious modes of alternative self-expression. (Through music, art, design, etc.)"

While both Fi-dominant types may often feel that they struggle to do their Fi inner experience justice with regards to self-expression, all else being equal, an ISFP is going to feel that they have a much harder time expressing themselves verbally than an INFP and will see words as inadequate when trying to convey the inner values that they hold inside. That is to say, compared to the INFP, the ISFP (because of the general effect of the combination of Fi-Se-Ni) typically doesn't like talking about their art/actions, as to them the experience/thing/action speaks for itself. For examples of IDR ISFPs:

David Bowie: “I had to resign myself, many years ago, that I’m not too articulate when it comes to explaining how I feel about things. But my music does it for me, it really does. There, in the chords and melodies, is everything I want to say. The words just jolly it along. It’s always been my way of expressing what for me is inexpressible by any other means.”

Kate Bush: "I really like the idea of my work speaking for me, not me speaking for me. I think my works says a lot more interesting stuff than I ever could and it’s more eloquent, and that is what I feel I have to offer the world. I don’t feel that what I have to say personally is that interesting and it’s not something that I have enthusiasm about, it’s not fun for me – I don’t really enjoy it."

Paul McCartney: "I don't like people explaining albums. The only way you can explain it is to hear it. You can't really use words about music, otherwise we'd do a talking album. The album is the explanation, and it's up to you to make sure what you want of it."

In this regard Bjork seems more Se-Ni than Ne-Si:

Björk: "[On tour I] do them interviews and try to explain something which is actually quite unexplainable, really. You know, I was asked earlier today to name 3 of my favorite albums at the moment and why, and it's just impossible, you know? And music should be that way, you know? It's unexplainable. It's one of the few things we got left in our culture which is not explainable."

Björk: "I find it more important to make music than to talk about it."

Rose: "My sense about you, in reading and knowing a little about your music, is that you have always been in love with sound - all kinds of sound."
Björk: "Yeah."
Rose: "Not lyrics, sound?"
Björk: "Yeah."
Rose: "Right? Tell me about that - all kinds of sounds."
Björk: "Yeah, it's just the one most all-embracing, forgiving, understanding thing there is. Just in the full abstraction of it, it doesn't ask any questions, and you don't have to explain yourself. And it's the one world where that can cover all of the emotional levels of you. I'm the sort of person, when it comes to say something like language or just communicating on a daily basis, I feel like I'm trying to put an ocean through a straw. And with music..."
Rose: "Because you feel so much, hear so much?"
Björk: "Maybe just because I'm not very good at it, you know, but with music, it doesn't feel like that. And it's not only me making music, it's also listening to other people's music that it's just like a warm embrace, you know?"

[Interviewer: "Obviously, we all think of you as a musician. So, what do you think of the acting business?"]
Björk: "I guess I'm not really impressed, really."
[Interviewer: "No?"]
Björk: "No."
[Interviewer: "You only had one go; it might get better. What didn't you like?"]
Björk: "There's too much talking. ... I'm more into singing."

One might point out examples of INFPs not liking to elaborately explain their work (like David Lynch) but even in that case one can see David Lynch is much more Si than Se in that his relationship to the empirical world is more refined/personalized/routinized:

Rose: "So what do you eating at first, tell me what you're eating?"
Lynch: "I'm eating, for lunch, tomatoes, tuna fish, feta cheese, and olive oil."
Rose: "Now, here's what's interesting about you, you eat that every day."
Lynch: "Every day."
Rose: "You eat the same thing?"
Lynch: "Yeah, it's very good."
Rose: "[laughs] Well I'm sure it is, otherwise we wouldn't eat it every day."
Lynch: "Right, exactly."
Rose: "What do you eat for dinner?"
Lynch: "Chicken... little pieces of chicken and broccoli and a little soy sauce."
Rose: "Every day?"
Lynch: "Yeah, everyday except when I travel, then I go off that."
Rose: "Can we say you're a creature of habit?
Lynch: "Yes, habit in the daily routine ... when there's some sort of order there then you're free to mentally go [to] any place, you've got a safe sort of foundation and a place to spring off. ... The purer the environment, the more fantastic the interior world can be, it seems to me."

By contrast Bjork's relation to the empirical world is much more visceral/direct/dynamic:

Björk: "What's kind of always truly been ... where my heart is, is making music and ... sounds, noises, and surroundings that I find exciting and interest me. While being a singer is mostly like a bit of a tool to be able to do that."

Björk: "All these people who say cars are so ugly, pollution’s so terrible—it’s true, but if you don’t want to live here then move into the forest. And if you are gonna live here, you might as well accept it and make the most out of it.”

I'll admit, if Björk is an ISFP type then she is a really weird S type (and by "weird" I don't mean eccentric behavior as that's a terrible way to distinguish S vs N, but rather Björk has a lot of traits that one wouldn't expect from an S type). Not an expert in the Big 5 by any means but I'd wager she's probably higher in openness to experience than the average ISFP, similar to Bowie and Enya.

nicotineseries

Woll Smoth

I suggest IDRlabs move Joe Biden from ENFJ to ESFJ:

I agree that Joe Biden is Fe dominant, but I won't go too deep into that territory and will mostly focus on the S and N distinction (as well as Si and Ni). For starters, I think his N is too low to be one of his uppermost functions, semi-conscious N makes a lot more sense. As IDRlabs has said in their basic general portrait of ENFJs, “the ENFJ tends to have an intellectual, even scholarly, side which they use to delve into abstract problems concerning the whole of society, if not the world. In truth, most ENFJs are quite comfortable juggling complex facts and challenging situations that require a firm grasp of the theory involved.” This "intellectual" and "abstract" side of the ENFJ is in no small part due to their auxiliary Ni, which is arguably the most abstract function imo. Anyway back to Joe Biden, there seems to be much more evidence of him not being oriented towards the abstract:

The Atlantic: “Though plenty smart, Biden is not an intellectual. He makes few references to books and learned influences in his speeches and autobiography, and he displays little interest in theory. An indifferent student at the University of Delaware and Syracuse University College of Law—he describes the latter as 'boring'—Biden got by with prodigious cramming sessions. Today, by contrast, he is described by Tony Blinken, Biden’s national-security adviser, as a compulsive studier who likes to be overbriefed."

Howard Fineman: “Biden is not an academic, he's not a theoretical thinker, he's a great street pol."

Regarding Si specifically, some quotes about Biden where I find that Fe supported by Si (meticulous, practical) makes more sense than Fe supported by Ni (ideational, holistic):

The Atlantic: “The guideposts in Biden’s political landscape are often not ideas, but people. Many of the world leaders with whom the United States has business are men and women he has known for years, even decades. In fall 2009, for example, after Obama had decided to abandon plans to build land-based missile defenses in eastern Europe—a move interpreted as a concession to Moscow—the White House sent Biden on a three-day swing through Poland, Romania, and the Czech Republic to reassure the leaders of those countries that their security would not be compromised. Biden had mastered the details of the issue—the virtues of sea-based anti-missile technology versus land-based, and so on—but his most important asset was that he knew many of the leaders personally.”

This last point isn't going to be my strongest point but it is something to consider. IDRlabs defines Si as "a way of perceiving psychic material by way of past impressions that have been subjectively associated with the outer occurrence at hand, causing the subject to experience deep and ineffable qualities in even ordinary sensations." Here is another quote from Mark Bowden from The Atlantic about Joe Biden that seems to suggest that Joe Biden could have a preference for Si:

The Atlantic: “In his personal life, Biden could hardly be more traditional. In the scruffy ’60s, when so many young men of his generation went unkempt as a social and political statement, Biden dressed up for class in college, sometimes wearing a tie. He says his first wife, Neilia, described him as ‘the most socially conservative man she had ever known.’”

One might interpret Joe Biden being "traditional" and "socially conservative" is a result of the subjective significance in the routines he has become accustomed to.

Woll Smoth

I suggest IDRlabs move Hefner from ESFP to ISFP.

The dominant function is one's bread and butter, their modus operandi, and which often operates entirely for its own sake. Hefner was not someone who was married to the outer world (as IDR Se dominant types wont to do), so to speak, but was rather more preoccupied with his inner world (like an Fi dominant type):

Steven Watts: “He tended to be reserved in formal situations at school or home. ... Absorbed in his imagination, he often neglected his studies. ... In his early teenage years he continued drawing cartoon strips — eventually they would number about seventy different series — and to write and illustrate stories. He had begun to read fiction by Edgar Allan Poe and H. G. Wells and became a devotee of Sax Rohmer’s Dr. Fu Manchu tales and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes. ... Indeed, throughout childhood Hefner created vivid fantasy worlds in which he immersed himself, a trait that would prove to be lifelong. The boy who wouldn’t answer the telephone or venture alone to the dentist’s office a few streets away preferred to inhabit a reality he had created.”

Steven Watts: "[His mother] Grace was repeatedly struck by Hugh’s insular creativity. 'As a child, he found it very difficult to make new friends. When he was in school, he was a dreamer, and sort of lived his own life in his own mind,' she observed. 'I would ask him who some of his classmates were, and he wouldn’t know the names of very many of them. ... You couldn’t always tell what was making Hugh feel unhappy, because he was very much a loner,' a baffled Grace admitted. 'He always lived in a fantasy world.' ... Often shy and insecure with other people, the boy did not like venturing out. ... Even as a kid, noted [his brother Keith], Hugh wanted 'his world to stay exactly as he made it, and doesn’t want to go anywhere else where that isn’t the reality.'"

As shown, Hefner often withdrew into an internal world of thoughts and images, neglecting a lot of the aspects of his immediate outer world in the process. For Hefner, as opposed to being first and foremost oriented towards taking in or engaging with the world on its own terms, it was his inner world that took precedence. As Watts, his mother, and brother all said, he “preferred to inhabit a reality he had created”, “he was a dreamer, and sort of lived his own life in his own mind”, and that Hugh wanted “his world to stay exactly as he made it, and doesn’t want to go anywhere else where that isn’t the reality.” In other words, he was preoccupied with his own subject before moving to the object.

Fi in the dominant position, since it exists almost entirely for its own sake, will often be in pursuit of an idealized sentiment-infused inner vision (and when I say “vision”, I don’t mean it in the Ni sense), even if the vision has no direct equivalent in external reality, and that “vision” will often be the primary driver of their cognition. Of course, ESFPs being Fi auxiliary, a lot of what has been said of Fi can somewhat apply to ESFPs to an extent but, all else being equal, ESFPs “immediate perceptual engagement with the outside world is much stronger and bundled up with current events and … are more inclined to let their cognitive life gravitate toward the present-day affairs” as Michael Goist put it. Hefner, in my opinion, fits the bill of dominant Fi as shown in this quote:

Hefner: “I was tremendously influenced by movies and by the romantic songs of the time, and I think that in a very real way I escaped into, in childhood, romantic dreams and fantasies as a kind of the equivalent of love. And I think most of my life has been a search and a quest for that perfect world that was described in the films and songs."

Taking everything said into account, all of this points to Hefner’s inner world determining his engagement with the outer world as opposed to the other way around.

For even more evidence for Fi, IDRlabs said regarding differentiated Fi, “Just as our creative designer did not give thought to conventional notions of ‘justified vs. unjustified’ or the ‘employer’s prerogative vs. employee’s prerogative’ in dictating the use of a preconceived template, but simply fought for his values, so highly differentiated Fi types can … give their all in the service of their ideals.” Like differentiated Fi, he spent most of his life dedicated to defending and championing his values and ideals:

Rolling Stone: “For the past 18 months, I’ve been studying the guy, mostly up close and personal. … The Hugh Hefner I found is more interesting than [his image], more cautious, more human. He’s fragile, romantic and full of ideals. He has given his life for a cause.”

Rolling Stone: “His metamorphosis into Mr. Playboy in 1962, for all its PR value to the magazine, was never just a self-serving effort. It was also an attempt to change American ideas about sexuality, a way to challenge the stigma of sexual freedom. When Hef took on his role, blending his political rhetoric with a promiscuous lifestyle, he was trying to challenge the idea that casual sex was immoral.”

Hefner: "The boy is the father of the man and so I still fight some of those same Puritan things in myself that I'm fighting in society.”
Interviewer: “Do you find yourself at all uneasy fighting those things?”
Hefner: “No, no, I'm just, you know, aware of it. I'm a very introspective person."

Hefner: “I can see now that I was fighting the same kind of things on the playground, when I was a kid, that I do in the magazine now, in other words the kind of social inequalities and things that bothered me then have simply going on and grown and disturb me now.”

Hefner: "The whole idea behind Playboy was to try and put sex back into the total fabric of the interest of man because traditionally in our society we've kept them separate. We've created a whole concept of the devil in the flesh in competition with the spirit of man, body pitted against mind and spirit, this earth and its pleasures pitted against the hereafter, it was that fundamentally that I was really fighting and it's something that, even today, is not clearly understood."

Side and last note, Fi focuses on the personal values of the subject. This gives types with differentiated Fi an attitude of individuation of their own values, which can lead them to artistic self-expression:

Hefner: "I withdrew into ... a lot of my own dreams and fantasies, and that's what led me to writing. I think that anyone who is interested in the creative arts, to some extent, needs that sort of detachment and that kind of introspection ... and you know, that led me into all kinds of [stuff like] writing and cartooning."

All in all, everything said all points to Hefner's primary mode of operation was rooted in his internal world of values and ideals. While he may superficially seem like an extrovert, I think he is ultimately an introvert as he prioritized his own subject before moving on to the object.

Even on a more behavioral level he was less stereotypical Se than his image let on:

Arthur Kretchmer (former editorial director of Playboy): “Victor Lownes played a great role at the company. He was something that Hefner was not... bold, brash. He was the complement to Hef, who was, after all, a little bit shy and cerebral.”

Christie Hefner (daughter of Hugh Hefner): “Victor [Lownes], in some ways, was more the image of the editor/publisher of Playboy than my father was, because Victor was someone who loved good food and wine, who loved to travel, who was more gregarious and sociable.”

Rolling Stone: “Whereas Hefner was ‘shy and cerebral,’ Lownes … was gregarious and promiscuous – the sort of person Hefner wanted to be."

So while Victor Lownes (as described) naturally fitted the picture of a (stereotypical) Se dominant type very well (traits that Hefner aspired to be but didn’t naturally possess), Hefner not so much. He was described as “shy and cerebral” and the like. All of which paints the picture of someone who was removed from the “flamboyant, life-of-the-party” image that he is often perceived as.

Woll Smoth

The way Briggs Myers describes Te is more similar to LSI than SLE, no?

Briggs Myers on Te:

“They are in their element whenever the outer situation needs to be organized, criticized, or regulated. Ordinarily they enjoy deciding what ought to be done and giving the appropriate orders to ensure that it will be done. … Often they are crisp disciplinarians, who know how to be tough when the situation calls for toughness. … Much of the extraverted thinkers’ effectiveness stems from their willingness to issue as strict orders to themselves as to anyone else. They stake out their objectives well in advance and put a lot of systematic effort into reaching them on schedule. At their best, they turn an unsparing eye upon their own conduct and revise whatever does not come up to standard . Extraverted thinkers construct a code of rules embodying their basic judgments about the world. They aim to live by those rules, and consider that others should as well. Any change in their ways requires a conscious change in the rules. If their perception is not good enough to show them, from time to time, how their rules should be broadened, the code will be so narrow and rigid that it becomes a tyranny not only to the thinkers but also to those around them, especially their families. Everything that conforms to the rules will be right; everything that violates them will be wrong; and everything not covered by them will be unimportant. They will become, as Jung puts it, ‘a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons.... [Anyone] who refuses to obey is wrong—he is resisting the world-law, and is, therefore, unreasonable, immoral and without a conscience’”

So as shown, MBTI Te use of principles (socionics Ti) isn’t just a situational thing, it typically needs everyone to adhere to them 24/7. The use of force (Socionics Se) is only in the context of said principles.

nicotineseries

Hey! Everyone this is my new page. Forget to my past entry that I had been made before, thank you.
Feel free to ask me of course, also forget with that photo instead too.

nicotineseries

Well somehow there is someone who put these thing on here, thank you!!

Bostonma

Technically estp...

Bostonma

For intp 5w4, perhaps not "people"

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xenine voted INFJ for Stefan George.

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Nameless user voted ISTJ for Thinks Justin Trudeau is French because he speaks French .

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gustyd voted INFJ for Ogino Chihiro / Sen.

gustyd voted LVEF for Jungian Ti type.

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